Native Children and Foster Care Money

[Zeke]

Read it again Zeke, dominant White Society! that is your problem, you hear what you want and not what was said.

That's functionally incorrect, you just do not express yourself well. For example, if you believe white society to be dominant, what are you actually saying? Uh huh, that's what I thought...

Again why can you not realize that fact that no one argued that if you ARE indeed a piece of crap who abuses, neglects or assaults a child you should have a child removed, but why will you not admit, that the issue is not just a rez issue, the same stuff happens in families off the rez. just as there are good relatives and foster families that are on the rez in which a child can be placed and protected.

No. YOU are the one fixated with the rez, what with trying to de-Nativize me because I am not from one. This is, as I have reported, a Native issue with the fallacy being that you believe Nativeness excuses parental lapses. (It doesn't.)

Seriously are you so bitter and jaded, you can't even accept an apology? And to answer your question, I played footbal, basketball, obtains my 2nd degree blackbelt in Tae Kwon Do, played the piano, drums and guitar, never skipped a grade, won't even try to tell you that it was offered because it wasn't, but was the head of my class and would have been valedictorian, had I not had to drop out to take care of a girlfriend and my first child.

LAME. Woulda', coulda', shoulda' but circumstances wouldn't allow it. There's that weak-willed thinking again.

I thought being responsible and accountable for my actions was far more appropriate than finishing school, some thing that would have still been there, and was, when I went back 15 years later.

Better. What sort of improved lifestyle could you child have had were you accountable in the first place? I'm sure that having a child after achieving academic goals was more "responsible" and "accountable." But hey, it was your choice: just cease whining about it while wearing your red badge like a war wound.

So you can stop pushing the responsible for ones own actions card, I think I am well versed in that.

And yet you preach entitlement. Basically, I call b-u-l-l-s-h-i-t.

At NO time have I ever denied being responsible for ones actions, but even mistakes do not account for just dos or taking ones medicine when a system is set up in complete contrast of another's culture.

Like NOT spending $$$ on cigarettes and Thunderbird instead of your kids?

Plain fact. On top of that I was student body President, and in the chess club, and played summer ball, oh, and I lived and grew up on the rez. So taking nothing away from your son, I think that is great, all children should have an opportunity to be happy and successful as you child, but that can also happen on the rez, believe me, I am NOT the exception, there are several of us, who lived on the rez, who have become successful, many still living on the same rez we grew up on, with there children's still in there home, acquiring a quality education, and quality values, ON THE REZ!

Which is a lot like saying lions at the zoo are getting a great education at being zoo lions.

I'm sorry all I heard was blah blah blah. Who the hell said that the best defense of being a parent was the pre-qualification of being Native?

ICWA, which you stupidly laud.

Again stick to what was said, not what you thought you heard. If you have a question of what I'm saying, ask, I'll clarify.

When you say anything clear -- do you know what punctuation, complete thoughts, paragraphs and even sub-adequate spelling is? -- you won't need to keep clarifying.

My statement stands. No argument, just pointing out the racist remark. Take it how ever you want.

That you're racist? I assure you, it's self-evident.

A good parent of any color beats the hell out of a crappy one! that is what many of us have said on several occasions, how did you miss that?

Likely somewhere within your blindingly ignorant and ineffectual excuses for Native community being a panacea?

I would like you to find me the post that said, if your kind have been removed, because you are a crappy, alcoholic, abusive, neglectful, mentally and emotionally abusive piece of trash, ... it's not your fault.

If you actually think out your short-sighted process, that's what you're saying.

Find me those words, Zeke, because you will never find, them. For the last time, If you are deserving of having your child removed, you are deserving. But as shown to you, not only by the article, but also yaahl's post, children ARE removed, for reasons other than being a piece of crap.

If you willingly exist within crap, you are crap. Again, you don't even understand what you're saying.

Continuing to argue against that statement make YOU the embarrassment.

What argument? You haven't even laid out a cohesive theory.

NOOOOOOO, I'm an @$$hole!, and [email protected] good one,(which is alot better than being a fecal matter rotation technician, that would be you) I'm also stubborn and get off on calling people out when they try to polish a turd.

Then you should cease polishing or be true to accountability, because you're just a joke to anyone who thinks.

[comadre]

I think there needs to be an investigation into these groups receiving all this money for Native kids, especially the ones labeled as Special needs.
I so agree

I so agree

It reminds me of when I used to work in the school system. Kids labeled as special needs brought in more money and they often labeled the minority kids Special needs.
There are two labels that are used as special needs within the child protective community. "Special needs" in and of itself means exactly that. But there is also "Special needs adoption" which means that the child is not likely to be adopted without greater incentive.Such as sibling groups, minority populations, high risk children, special needs kids,ect.

I hope people continue to pay more attention to this so that more kids don't get taken away because of idiotic things like a birthmark.
I do agree here. I was told by my child's doctor to be sure to explain up front to anyone caring for my child that he has a documentation in his doctor's record as an infant about his mongollion spot in order to avoid a problem with protective authorities.Apparently it has happened all too often.

Gosh I can not stress enough that the native community really needs to be assertive in their dealings with the child protective agencies.Far too often native parents feel so helpless born out of the feelings of powerlessness (understandably so)and therefore retreat from their dealings with social workers rather than fight.Then I believe the social workers can misperceive the native parent as not caring when in fact that is far from true.( and this is only one example of cultural clash)What we need for our communities is greater awareness on both sides of the issue for the sake of our kids.
Then I think it could be helpful to address the "system" issue that is so pervasive in regards to the problem of lack of equal power base which yaahl did well to outline in her family's story and is still a problem across Native America according to many families who still report that experience.
Lots of work to be done around this issue. So the question begs an answer.....Have you hugged your local social worker who works on these issues? Have you talked with your tribal councilmen and councilwomen about these things?

[comadre]

Looks like Zeke owes you lunch for a week

GREAT OBSERVATION

[Toolbox]

(Truncated)
...
And to answer your question, I played footbal, basketball, obtains my 2nd degree blackbelt in Tae Kwon Do, played the piano, drums and guitar, never skipped a grade, won't even try to tell you that it was offered because it wasn't, but was the head of my class and would have been valedictorian... ...Plain fact. On top of that I was student body President, and in the chess club, and played summer ball, oh, and I lived and grew up on the rez.
...

Looks like Zeke owes you lunch for a week

[kgirl7]

Pigheaded, I'm glad you are called pigheaded! :-D Don't worry about the "insults".
I think there needs to be an investigation into these groups receiving all this money for Native kids, especially the ones labeled as Special needs. It reminds me of when I used to work in the school system. Kids labeled as special needs brought in more money and they often labeled the minority kids Special needs. I hope people continue to pay more attention to this so that more kids don't get taken away because of idiotic things like a birthmark.

1. Asking me to "shove it" is an obvious manner in which to retort "because I don't, really, have an adequate response."

2. You second assertion is just laughable on two fronts: that it is valid and that you continue to insist that "whites" are dominant. (There's your problem!)

Read it again Zeke, dominant White Society! that is your problem, you hear what you want and not what was said.

3. Why is it deplorable to place a Native child with next-of-kin on the rez? Because, often, the rez is the problem. If you have issues with me pointing out that Native folks who get their kids removed due to $$$ typically still find enough for cigarettes and Thunderbird? Then make it something other then typical reality.

Again why can you not realize that fact that no one argued that if you ARE indeed a piece of crap who abuses, neglects or assaults a child you should have a child removed, but why will you not admit, that the issue is not just a rez issue, the same stuff happens in families off the rez. just as there are good relatives and foster families that are on the rez in which a child can be placed and protected.

4. You're right in that, in general, I don't mention my kids or their mother. (This was, perhaps, the first time because personalization of an issue hurts analysis.) That said, the point is to illustrate that there is a difference in kids who are raised in an environment that I support versus the one you are -- failing -- to justify. To wit, when you find a kid on the rez who plays football, is nearly a black belt in karate, enjoys lattes, plays jazz saxophone, skips grades and isn't twelve yet? Call me and I'll send lunch $$$ for a week in support. If/when you don't find one, realize that it isn't the kid's fault.

Seriously are you so bitter and jaded, you can't even accept an apology?
And to answer your question, I played footbal, basketball, obtains my 2nd degree blackbelt in Tae Kwon Do, played the piano, drums and guitar, never skipped a grade, won't even try to tell you that it was offered because it wasn't, but was the head of my class and would have been valedictorian, had I not had to drop out to take care of a girlfriend and my first child. I thought being responsible and accountable for my actions was far more appropriate than finishing school, some thing that would have still been there, and was, when I went back 15 years later. So you can stop pushing the responsible for ones own actions card, I think I am well versed in that. At NO time have I ever denied being responsible for ones actions, but even mistakes do not account for just dos or taking ones medicine when a system is set up in complete contrast of another's culture. Plain fact. On top of that I was student body President, and in the chess club, and played summer ball, oh, and I lived and grew up on the rez. So taking nothing away from your son, I think that is great, all children should have an opportunity to be happy and successful as you child, but that can also happen on the rez, believe me, I am NOT the exception, there are several of us, who lived on the rez, who have become successful, many still living on the same rez we grew up on, with there children's still in there home, acquiring a quality education, and quality values, ON THE REZ!

5. Have you ever had to take a child? I have. ICWA works in the best interest of nobody. (If your best defense to be, become, or act as a parent is that "you're Native," you possess an exceedingly weak argument.) In sum, what you're seeing is the opinion of someone who has been forced to deal with these issues and has actually thought about it as opposed to weakly trying to rationalize something due to emotion, fear, ignorance, and an inability to see past their own nose because they feel entitled to some sort of protection due to genetics.

I'm sorry all I heard was blah blah blah. Who the hell said that the best defense of being a parent was the pre-qualification of being Native? Again stick to what was said, not what you thought you heard. If you have a question of what I'm saying, ask, I'll clarify.

You realize that makes you no different than the clan, right? It, also, vividly points out that you don't, actually, possess any argument of merit.

My statement stands. No argument, just pointing out the racist remark. Take it how ever you want.

Me? Mine is pretty simple: if a Native parent is an unfit parent, they should get their kids yanked. If the environment adds to the situation, kids shouldn't be returned to it.

A good white/black/plaid/martian parent beats the hell out of a crappy Native one, any day.

A good parent of any color beats the hell out of a crappy one! that is what many of us have said on several occasions, how did you miss that?

Understand this, if you're a crappy parent, you're NOT "the victim." Your problem, and that of others like you, is that you just -- so desperately -- want to be one.

I would like you to find me the post that said, if your kind have been removed, because you are a crappy, alcoholic, abusive, neglectful, mentally and emotionally abusive piece of trash, ... it's not your fault. Find me those words, Zeke, because you will never find, them. For the last time, If you are deserving of having your child removed, you are deserving. But as shown to you, not only by the article, but also yaahl's post, children ARE removed, for reasons other than being a piece of crap. Continuing to argue against that statement make YOU the embarrassment.

Again, you're embarrassing.

NOOOOOOO, I'm an @$$hole!, and [email protected] good one,(which is alot better than being a fecal matter rotation technician, that would be you) I'm also stubborn and get off on calling people out when they try to polish a turd.

[Zeke]

Hardly an argument worthy of your intellect Zeke.

It vividly makes the point, immediately.

And you KNOW it's true.

Not feeling guilty about spending $100 wantonly because you're $1,000,000 in debt doesn't justify anything beyond WHY you're in the circumstance to begin with.

[Zeke]

1. Asking me to "shove it" is an obvious manner in which to retort because you don't, really, have an adequate response.

2. You second assertion is just laughable on two fronts: that it is valid and that you continue to insist that "whites" are dominant. (There's your problem!)

3. Why is it deplorable to place a Native child with next-of-kin on the rez? Because, often, the rez is the problem. If you have issues with me pointing out that Native folks who get their kids removed due to $$$ typically still find enough for cigarettes and Thunderbird? Then make it something other then typical reality.

4. You're right in that, in general, I don't mention my kids or their mother. (This was, perhaps, the first time because personalization of an issue hurts analysis.) That said, the point is to illustrate that there is a difference in kids who are raised in an environment that I support versus the one you are -- failing -- to justify. To wit, when you find a kid on the rez who plays football, is nearly a black belt in karate, enjoys lattes, plays jazz saxophone, skips grades and isn't twelve yet? Call me and I'll send lunch $$$ for a week in support. If/when you don't find one, realize that it isn't the kid's fault.

5. Have you ever had to take a child? I have. ICWA works in the best interest of nobody. (If your best defense to be, become, or act as a parent is that "you're Native," you possess an exceedingly weak argument.) In sum, what you're seeing is the opinion of someone who has been forced to deal with these issues and has actually thought about it as opposed to sadly trying to rationalize something due to emotion, fear, ignorance, and an inability to see past their own nose because they feel entitled to some sort of protection due to genetics.

You realize that makes you no different than the clan, right? It, also, vividly points out that you don't, actually, possess any argument of merit.

Me? Mine is pretty simple: if a Native parent is an unfit parent, they should get their kids yanked. If the environment adds to the situation, kids shouldn't be returned to it.

A good white/black/plaid/martian parent beats the hell out of a crappy Native one, any day.

Understand this, if you're a crappy parent, you're NOT "the victim." Your problem, and that of others like you, is that you just -- so desperately -- want to be one.

Again, you're shamefully embarrassing.

First and for most, you can take your so called embarrassment and shove it. Second of all , if you would for even a few moment deflate that over inflated undeserving ego of yours long enough to listen to anything any one said on here, you would see, that NO ONE, ever argued that fact that if you are an abusive or neglectful parent, that your children should be removed, in fact there are a few posts in which that statement was made, CLEARLY, even before you chimed in. The problem Zeke, is your over zealousness to blame victims, and I know, I know, you have an argument for that as well, probably that its their own fault for being a victim.

I truly think, and I do not mean to be insulting here, I think the problem is that either you've lived in the dominate society long enough that you have adopted their views of Natives and the community or you have never lived on the rez and have always lived in the dominate society. Either way, you disdain for natives and their culture is clear.

[QUOTE=Zeke;1495861
"Yes child, this is a rez meth house. But it is YOUR rez meth house and a legacy of which to be proud..."
GARBAGE.
In reference to many families losing kids merely because they cannot afford legal fees, I note that they seem to have few issues obtaining cigarettes or Thunderbird? [/QUOTE]

As opposed to white suburbia meth house? White kids who get taken from their homes, usually are placed with next of kin. Grandma, Grandpa, Uncles, Aunts, older siblings, why is it ok for them but deplorable to place a Native child in a native home on the rez. Sorry I don't buy the whole the rez is F#@%ed up because the world is [email protected]#$ed up. A white kid has the same chance of being molested, neglected or abused in the family and society that Native kids, do, mainly because it's a family disease, a molester was usually molested, who was molested by someone who was molested, who was moles....., An abuser, was usually abused, by someone who was .... a neglectful parent was neglect... you see the pattern right?

[QUOTE=Zeke;149586 cigarettes or Thunderbird? [/QUOTE]
It's comments like that, that are the reasons I call you Whitey. I mean you might as well call a black guy a lazy N word. All while wearing a sheet and a pointy pillow case on your head. Seriously, that is just a stereotypical racist remark. True alcoholism is high on the rez, but to label all is just appalling especially for one native to say about another. Pot - Kettle


Well, I am not married (or perfect) but that doesn't mean she's not brilliant or wonderful. I like the fact that my nearly twelve-year-old son tweeted me about the quality of his latte this morning and plays jazz on a baritone sax! It's GOOD STUFF.
I do apologizing if it appeared to be attacking your family, not my intent. There is nothing wrong with enjoying a good cappuccino, or espresso, there is for me, I just don't like em, too froo froo, but hey that's me.


I think ICWA is grotesque and farcical, believing it best to give a kid to a grandparent or relative -- likely existing in the same problematic environment as the original parents -

Maybe that is because you have never had to rely on or fight them. It can work both ways, And again, your thinking on this is typical dominant societies thoughts, ICWA's a pain in the arse, because they are only gonna work for the NAtives. Not true, white society only works whats best for them, ICWA and native community works for what is in the best interest of everyone. the child, the parent, the family, the clan, the tribe, the community. I think a lack of ignorance(as in not informed) has clouded your judgment. I think once again we have seen the expert opinion of someone who has NEVER dealt with this type of situation, but seems to have all the fact, without any of the truth.

We have a foster child, enrolled with the Mojave tribe of California and is also part Hunkpati Dakota. We do not receive any monies. He was 1 lb when born and he is a survivor.

That's awesome!

[comadre]

Well, I am not married (or perfect) but that doesn't mean she's not brilliant or wonderful. I like the fact that my nearly twelve-year-old son tweeted me about the quality of his latte this morning and plays jazz on a baritone sax! It's GOOD STUFF.

As for the esoteric concept of forgiveness and ICWA? I think ICWA is grotesque and farcical, believing it best to give a kid to a grandparent or relative -- likely existing in the same problematic environment as the original parents -- as opposed to a theoretical loving billionaire merely because they are not Native... If the community is the issue, why would we ever want to saddle someone with return?

"Yes child, this is a rez meth house. But it is YOUR rez meth house and a legacy of which to be proud..."

GARBAGE.

In reference to many families losing kids merely because they cannot afford legal fees, I note that they seem to have few issues obtaining cigarettes or Thunderbird?

Bear with me here as I am not as techy in the use of this computer stuff. Can't break down the quote "thingy" like you can but let me try to address your answer as best I can.

Well, I am not married (or perfect) but that doesn't mean she's not brilliant or wonderful. I like the fact that my nearly twelve-year-old son tweeted me about the quality of his latte this morning and plays jazz on a baritone sax! It's GOOD STUFF.
right on. : )

I think ICWA is grotesque and farcical, believing it best to give a kid to a grandparent or relative -- likely existing in the same problematic environment as the original parents -
I do agree with you that giving a child to a grandparent or relative in the same neglectful and/or abusive environment as the problematic environment the parents came from is-WRONG.And I too see it neglectful to "saddle" a child with on going abuse in the name of "culture" or "community". What you described could also be termed oppression and it is wrong.period.


In reference to many families losing kids merely because they cannot afford legal fees, I note that they seem to have few issues obtaining cigarettes or Thunderbird?
I (I can only speak for myself) have not been talking about these types of families.

as opposed to a theoretical loving billionaire merely because they are not Native.

You get no argument here from me on this issue! Though I am still working on that billion dollars!LOL

Zeke, those circumstances in which I have been talking about do not involve abusive families. And in those circumstances ICWA was meant I believe to protect from illegal removals due to cultural misunderstandings that were taking place in high numbers.
I think it is a misconception that ICWA does not place in non native homes.I think they have used the MEPA to place a child with an appropriate placement outside their native culture if need be.
This is so difficult to discuss if we do not address the actual stories themselves. yaahl for instance gave us one. And it was a good illustration of what can happen here in the states as well.Not only on the reservations but also in the suburban lands.Not always-but certainly enough to catch suspicion that native families should arm themselves with knowledge in this area.

p.s. forgive me for marrying you off to the brilliant lady. LOL!

[yaahl]

In reference to many families losing kids merely because they cannot afford legal fees, I note that they seem to have few issues obtaining cigarettes or Thunderbird?

Not sure what you think you can hire a lawyer for these days for a child apprehension case but if said parent smoked a pack a day at 10 bucks for 25 smokes... over the course of a year it might and I say might... get them about 10 hours of a lawyer's time*...those 10 hours might get a brief appearance at the 72 hour hearing and some research done. That is of course if the retainer is paid first which is usually in the region of 5-7k. That amount gets you about 15 hours. Imagine how much a year's worth of litigation is going to cost...those smokes you mentioned are just a drop in a very large bucket.

Hardly an argument worthy of your intellect Zeke. I think in this debate you are suffering from headupbuttitis. Willing people to not be affected by poverty, addiction, violence and generational trauma isn't going to magically make it all go away neither is ignoring it going to make it go away. Arguing with those whose opinion differs from you by simply calling them on their lack of articulation is again, an unworthy use of your intellect. I am disappointed that you have gone that route. I expected better from you.

*providing if the lawyer charges less than 350 an hour.

[wanjica_the_one]

We have a foster child, enrolled with the Mojave tribe of California and is also part Hunkpati Dakota. We do not receive any monies. He was 1 lb when born and he is a survivor.

[Zeke]

Zeke, do you think that anything yaahl said might have happened here in our own country as well? And if there were brilliant native people like your wife,who had stories of losing their children when the abuse did not exist would you be willing to hear their stories?
And what about the children who have been removed and never made it back to their communities and do not know their families simply because the Indian child welfare act was not followed.
For those whose families may have been involved in something below the virtuous line, does forgiveness later in life and healing of families mean anything?If it does then perhaps we all should ask if the road toward doing so is open.

Well, I am not married (or perfect) but that doesn't mean she's not brilliant or wonderful. I like the fact that my nearly twelve-year-old son tweeted me about the quality of his latte this morning and plays jazz on a baritone sax! It's GOOD STUFF.

As for the esoteric concept of forgiveness and ICWA? I think ICWA is grotesque and farcical, believing it best to give a kid to a grandparent or relative -- likely existing in the same problematic environment as the original parents -- as opposed to a theoretical loving billionaire merely because they are not Native... If the community is the issue, why would we ever want to saddle someone with return?

"Yes child, this is a rez meth house. But it is YOUR rez meth house and a legacy of which to be proud..."

GARBAGE.

In reference to many families losing kids merely because they cannot afford legal fees, I note that they seem to have few issues obtaining cigarettes or Thunderbird?

[comadre]

When the community IS the problem AND hasn't shown an ability to positively impact parents...

Zeke, do you think that anything yaahl said might have happened here in our own country as well? And if there were brilliant native people like your wife,who had stories of losing their children when the abuse did not exist would you be willing to hear their stories?
And what about the children who have been removed and never made it back to their communities and do not know their families simply because the Indian child welfare act was not followed.
For those whose families may have been involved in something below the virtuous line, does forgiveness later in life and healing of families mean anything?If it does then perhaps we all should ask if the road toward doing so is open.

[Zeke]

I guess are just all a bunch of drunken abusive and neglectful pieces of crap who deserve to have their children taken from them and the community, because, well, you know, they are all alike...

If you manage/deserve to get your kids taken away due to incompetence?

Uh, YES.

at least Zeke's kid knows what really good espresso taste like!(Hope you didn't miss the ragin sarcasm here)

You did.

I know I'll sleep better at night knowing that Zeke and his family's are in full enjoyment of dominate white society's amenities.

Like being parents that deserve to keep their children?

All while blaming folks for the crap dealt them...

I wasn't aware that disavowing circumstances use as a crutch had anything to do with blame: unless you're actively searching for reasons to not be accountable, perpetuating victim status for purposes of generational guilt...

And of course we all know how you feel about rape, and doin drunk chicks.

That, perhaps, they shouldn't be drunk?

Was probably our own faults for occupying the white's land before they got here too, right?

It's our fault for allowing then to impact us NOW, sure.

I know you have taught me one thing though, I shall never make fun of the whiteness of my wife ever again, because I realize that though her skin is white, her values are Native, and always have been. Where as, you may look native, it is clear to see that your values and way of thinking, are so white you are practically albino.

Only if you believe Natives possess only the capacity to be social wards.

Amigo? Ok I realize why you edited my post, but did you really have to take out the ...and the horse and/or public transportation system you rode in on? I mean that was classic! And I don't care who you are, that's just funny!

The reality is that you're not as smart as my dog(s), because they have the self-awareness to realize that they are pets.

I am embarrassed FOR you.