Strange idea maybe

[momme]

It seems like a lot more boy scouts are finding there way on to Pws.com and more often than not they get bashed and berated for asking their questions. I know the whole OA thing is a war unto itself, but what about setting up something for them where support could be given in a positive way by those who are willing or comfortable doing that. Kind of a no bashing zone for the kids, because that's what they are, just kids.
If this would be best acheived through the chat room that's fine, but wasn't sure if that was the right place since very few of the kids posts show up there.
Like I said strange idea maybe, and I am an adult so am prepared to be bashed for those who choose to do that, but I'd prefer to take the heat than a bunch of kids.

[Josiah]

A little knowledge can be a terrible thing...
The reluctance is to pass this knowledge on to these so called knowledge seekers
Some have in the past taken this knowledge and gave it there own spin to jazz it up
and Yikes!
Questions can be answered all over this website, if done correctly
And yes on occasion you will find someone not willing to, which is there right...

[quicksilverwade]

So you're saying that you condone how the Boy Scouts are engorging themselves to their hearts content? Can you explain this:

http://waupecanlodge.batcave.net/

The Chapters of Waupecan Lodge are looking for Ceremonial Principles for the Webelos Crossover Ceremonies. Talk to your Chapter Chief for more information.

[Wojapi4Me]

The reason some of these people are getting bashed is because they are showing no respect. Show respect...get respect.

Case in point - the recent scout question centered around the Eagle Dance. The question was answered rather quickly...don't do it...you don't have the right and its a ceremonial dance to many tribes. Well, that scout didn't like that answer and proceeded to bash the people who answered his question.

I have no problem with having another forum where they can ask their questions, but does this mean that the rest of us can't post in the forum? That wouldn't be fair. I think they should just keep it as it is and let them ask and let the chips fall where they may. The ones who are truly asking questions to learn will get the answers they need and the ones asking just to get a merit badge or to win some award will be weeded out like they should be.

[Furiously-Fancy]

The reason some of these people are getting bashed is because they are showing no respect. Show respect...get respect.

Case in point - the recent scout question centered around the Eagle Dance. The question was answered rather quickly...don't do it...you don't have the right and its a ceremonial dance to many tribes. Well, that scout didn't like that answer and proceeded to bash the people who answered his question.

I have no problem with having another forum where they can ask their questions, but does this mean that the rest of us can't post in the forum? That wouldn't be fair. I think they should just keep it as it is and let them ask and let the chips fall where they may. The ones who are truly asking questions to learn will get the answers they need and the ones asking just to get a merit badge or to win some award will be weeded out like they should be.

[Baby*z*]

The reason some of these people are getting bashed is because they are showing no respect. Show respect...get respect.

Case in point - the recent scout question centered around the Eagle Dance. The question was answered rather quickly...don't do it...you don't have the right and its a ceremonial dance to many tribes. Well, that scout didn't like that answer and proceeded to bash the people who answered his question.

I have no problem with having another forum where they can ask their questions, but does this mean that the rest of us can't post in the forum? That wouldn't be fair. I think they should just keep it as it is and let them ask and let the chips fall where they may. The ones who are truly asking questions to learn will get the answers they need and the ones asking just to get a merit badge or to win some award will be weeded out like they should be.

Exactly. Very well said, i agree Singerdad.

[lostsalt]

The problem is different now than it used to be. Now a person regardless of who he/she is (wasicu,wannabe,mixed blood, rez.resident) can ask questions. Before questions were asked to unclesand elders. They looked into our face, measured our hearts. Disrespectful people did not get continually feed the beauty of the oral traditions. Now the good hearted nature of the people is being taken advantage of by some OA people/ new agers and dollar mongers. The byproduct is more hurt feelings.
This site is GOOD. Of course at times, people will wander in some with good intentions some not so much...

Anyway, ya'll are great @ calling a spade a spade.
Leave the forum wide open as is. Just as in the council, long ago, bad words have bad consequences.
Peace to all nations
Lostsalt

[momme]

My biggest thought in having a seperate area for them (the scouts) is that it may be a reminder when going in (for those who may try to help or those just interested in what is going through the minds of todays youth) that the question will probably not be asked in a good way (but maybe the best the kid knows how), that there may be no understanding that the question should never have been asked in the first place (how do you know not to ask about sacred stuff when you don't know what is sacred), and that the response to any criticism is probably going to be defensive and an overreaction (this is probably becasue they are kids not really anything to with being a scout).
i don't think anyone should be excluded from posting anywhere really, but just thought it might help some to remember that they are just kids who in a lot of cases don't know any better. i really don't think they should be given free rein or anything either, but the crticisms could be given in a lot more constructive and instructive ways.
I guess in some ways a separate area probably wouldn't be needed, but try to remember that they are just kids (teens) that are looking for answers and not to be put down and bashed personally for that.
I think that's my thoughts for now... I'm not trying to cause a fight and i'm definitely not condoning the way some of them have acted on here, just hate to see kids get picked on.

[Josiah]

That is all part of the learning process
And this is not some obscure object lesson
But life lessons and traditions!!!
They will be mixed with passion and anger and all of the strongest emotions.
Because they did not come from a book they are lived and experienced today.
To convey this to some one that has no basis for reference.
Well if its book learning they seek there are tons of articles that Paul G has posted on protocol...
And if you want to write a HOW TO Survive on PW.COM
Write away!

[hobbs49]

<snip>
I guess in some ways a separate area probably wouldn't be needed, but try to remember that they are just kids (teens) that are looking for answers and not to be put down and bashed personally for that.
I think that's my thoughts for now... I'm not trying to cause a fight and i'm definitely not condoning the way some of them have acted on here, just hate to see kids get picked on.

If these kids are like my kids, then their method of "looking for answers" is to ask questions first because that's fastest. In many cases these kids do need to be asking people they know, reading archives more, the protocols pages, etc to at least get a basic understanding. Post questions on PW.com for clarification. Too often the questions show no basic knowledge upon which to even base a question. This is one thing that I think adds to some of the frustration here.

And as far as having a separate area for scouts and/or OA, that's like putting fish in a barrel and getting the shotgun out. Seems like anyone who want's to start any negative discussions will run there and see what can be stirred up. I think it was SingerDad who suggested that people are getting bashed because they are showing no respect. I've seen that. When requesting sensitive information about a people such as Native Americans, one should always show the utmost humility and respect.

Just my $0.02

[Pathfinder]

What are they really?

Well, I think the whole boy scout pow wow participation thing is peculiar. It is only my opinion, but it appears that they have adopted our culture as a hobby. And, when they outgrow this hobby they'll move onto something else. Or, maybe they can find another culture to adopt. Maybe they'll be Greek or French or something.

Several years ago I attended one of their pow wows. There were other Native people there as well. There was an obvious segregation, and I got the general feeling that the Indians could be there, but the pow wow belonged to the scouts. The most outrageous thing I've ever seen occurred. A man came in dressed as Gen. Custer. He said it was for the historical effect. He looked so much like Custer it was scary. This man's presence upset many people.

I've also been told (don't know if it's true or not) that if a Native kid joins the scouts and wants to participate in their pow wows, he has to do it their way, not the NDN. Also, I've been told that Indian kids can't carry their eagle feathers (this could just be gossip - not sure).

On the other hand, if a young man or lady chooses to participate in our customs, and does it in honor and respect and truly at least attempts to follow tradition and show respect to the elders as we all should, then let them proceed. If their activities keeps them off the streets and out of trouble, then it's a good thing. Some kids don't have terrific situations at home, and maybe this will save them mentally, physically and spiritually. That's a good thing.

A private school asked if I would come and speak on Native issues to its students during Thanksgiving week. They wanted me to not speak of things the way they really happened, rather they wanted an antiseptic version from the White view point. I declined the invitation.

My question to the boy scouts and any other non Natives who are attempting our culture and way of life is this. If history repeated itself, and the government came against us to re-conquer us, would they still try to be "Indian" or would they be white?

[tigger]

Well, I think the whole boy scout pow wow participation thing is peculiar. It is only my opinion, but it appears that they have adopted our culture as a hobby. And, when they outgrow this hobby they'll move onto something else. Or, maybe they can find another culture to adopt. Maybe they'll be Greek or French or something.

Several years ago I attended one of their pow wows. There were other Native people there as well. There was an obvious segregation, and I got the general feeling that the Indians could be there, but the pow wow belonged to the scouts. The most outrageous thing I've ever seen occurred. A man came in dressed as Gen. Custer. He said it was for the historical effect. He looked so much like Custer it was scary. This man's presence upset many people.

I've also been told (don't know if it's true or not) that if a Native kid joins the scouts and wants to participate in their pow wows, he has to do it their way, not the NDN. Also, I've been told that Indian kids can't carry their eagle feathers (this could just be gossip - not sure).

On the other hand, if a young man or lady chooses to participate in our customs, and does it in honor and respect and truly at least attempts to follow tradition and show respect to the elders as we all should, then let them proceed. If their activities keeps them off the streets and out of trouble, then it's a good thing. Some kids don't have terrific situations at home, and maybe this will save them mentally, physically and spiritually. That's a good thing.

A private school asked if I would come and speak on Native issues to its students during Thanksgiving week. They wanted me to not speak of things the way they really happened, rather they wanted an antiseptic version from the White view point. I declined the invitation.

My question to the boy scouts and any other non Natives who are attempting our culture and way of life is this. If history repeated itself, and the government came against us to re-conquer us, would they still try to be "Indian" or would they be white?

not all of the scouts "grow" out of the powwows and move to other things. i started in the scouts 20yrs ago and to this day still go to pow wows and dance and/or sing.

you ask that if history repeated itself would we still try to be indian. well, i for one don't try to be anything then what i am and i know others that are like me in that repect. i'm white but i love the culture and the people. there's always been a few whites that just loved the culture (historically) and were brought into it. and that was before the whites tried to conquer.

and yes, sadly, if a native joins the OA and decides to be a member of one of their dance teams. he cannot wear anything "illegal" (at least for white) or ceromonal at a BSA function. that way it's fair to all. i know it doesn't seem right since "we" are borrowing the culture and i'll be the first to agree.

[Blue Poet]

Mechanism exists

If you look over to the left margin, Paul has a section under "Home" entitled Students & Teachers. I recommend he add one for Scouts and Scout Leaders.

One of the first things that needs to be said under that heading is that while this site welcomes the public to peruse the threads and ask questions; there is a certain behavior expected of them as guests. 1) They need to leave much of their prior knowledge and information at the door because it is incorrect and we've heard it hundreds of times before--don't shove it down our throats as 'fact'. 2) They need to be open to hearing a diversity of opinions on any given matter--all tribes are not alike. 3) They need to understand that there are aspects of our cultures and traditions that are none of their business and we retain the right to so notify them of that fact and decline to answer their questions. 4) If they are here to seek answers and information they need to be respectful in their manner of addressing us.

I'm sure there are more 'points' but the mechanism is there, we just need to use it. There is no way to avoid these often 'annoying' visitors; but we can try and make it a more palatable experience for them and us.

[paintedsun22]

Well, I think the whole boy scout pow wow participation thing is peculiar. It is only my opinion, but it appears that they have adopted our culture as a hobby. And, when they outgrow this hobby they'll move onto something else. Or, maybe they can find another culture to adopt. Maybe they'll be Greek or French or something.

Several years ago I attended one of their pow wows. There were other Native people there as well. There was an obvious segregation, and I got the general feeling that the Indians could be there, but the pow wow belonged to the scouts. The most outrageous thing I've ever seen occurred. A man came in dressed as Gen. Custer. He said it was for the historical effect. He looked so much like Custer it was scary. This man's presence upset many people.

I've also been told (don't know if it's true or not) that if a Native kid joins the scouts and wants to participate in their pow wows, he has to do it their way, not the NDN. Also, I've been told that Indian kids can't carry their eagle feathers (this could just be gossip - not sure).

On the other hand, if a young man or lady chooses to participate in our customs, and does it in honor and respect and truly at least attempts to follow tradition and show respect to the elders as we all should, then let them proceed. If their activities keeps them off the streets and out of trouble, then it's a good thing. Some kids don't have terrific situations at home, and maybe this will save them mentally, physically and spiritually. That's a good thing.

A private school asked if I would come and speak on Native issues to its students during Thanksgiving week. They wanted me to not speak of things the way they really happened, rather they wanted an antiseptic version from the White view point. I declined the invitation.

Oh yeah.... That is so true. If they wanna know for REAL, they should get in contact w/ an elder in thier area. Let the elder decide if the kid is serious or not.

[masco62]

Exactly. Very well said, i agree Singerdad.