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Moral Theology and the Bible
Sophie, I wasn't sure what to name this. I would've included the word "debate" in the title, but that word, despite its harmlessness, comes across minacious to some. I know you understand. I hope you find this and I hope I did it right. :)
For those of you new to this thread, Sophie and I (Taushina) met in the "Abortion" forum under the topic "Health Issues". Sophie suggested that I start a new thread specifically for this topic. I'll copy and paste our conversation. Feel free to pick up where we left off, or add comments that you feel are pertinent to this topic.
"Hello all! Very interesting thread. I've enjoyed your comments. If you would forgive a newcommer's boldness, I would appreciate the opportunity to be heard, and would ask that you please allow me to interject some pro-choice logic from the a) christian perspective, b) a scientific perspective, c) historical perspective, and d) cultural relevatism perspective. Same as your Taushina's posts, please forgive spelling/grammatical errors. Thanks -
a) Spirit = Life. When God breathed life into Adam, the spirit (which was created in the image and likeness of God) was animated and brought forth into expression. The SLED acronym is great, but essentially irrelevant in that the essence of life is in the spirit which is eternal and can not be destroyed whether 1 wk old or 100 yrs old." Sophie
"Very well stated! I'll address your first premise and the others later if thats okay with you. With my prideful nature I would be inclined to offer a rebuttal to each and every one of your points, but thats just absurd. That way we're not playnig a game of "catch-up" and that way you have a chance to reply to each individual response rather than 5 or 6 of them!
I thought it would be wise not to argue on biblical grounds, but rather on general humanitarian grounds that appeal to all people. Since you have went forth with this, than I will (try) to offer a response for the sake of argument.
Secondly, I would like to commend you on your professionalism. I can learn a lot from you! (You don't mind my fluffiness do you?)
According to you, premise (a) is a "Christian Perspective".
1. Spirit = Life
2. God gives us our spirit.
3. Spirit cannot be destroyed.
(since this is a "christian perspective" some more variables need to be added, so we're not being biased)
4. The bible is absolute truth.
5. There is no such thing as pre-existing spirits.
6. God created the "spirit" at conception.
7. The Bible interprets itself.
8. God has a plan for each pesons life, to glorify Him.
"So God created people in his own image; God patterned them after himself; male and female he created them." (Genesis 1:27 NLT)
Because of this, human beings are INTRINSICALLY valuable and possess certain God-given rights. The biblical prohibition of murder is based specifically in the fact that man is created in God's image.
"...for to kill a person is to kill a living being made in God's image." (Genesis 9:6 NLT)
The second greatest commandment is that we should love our neighbor, and this is a universal command extending to every human being. Not only this, but every human being is a person for whom Christ died, which gives each person unspeakable value. On the Christian worldview, then, one single human being is worth more than the entire material universe. Because of their exalted view of man, Christians are deeply committed to the cause of human rights.
The Bible also suggests that human life begins not at birth but in the womb. There are a surprising number of biblical references to life in the womb. Some forty times the scripture refers to conception as the start of new life in the womb. Moreover, God is represented as caring about and even calling people while they are in the womb.
"You made all the delicate, inner parts of my body and knit me together in my mother's womb. Thank you for making me so wonderfully complex! Your workmanship is marvelous-and how well I know it. You watched me as I was being formed in utter seclusion, as I was woven together in the dark of the womb. You saw me before I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed. How precious are your thoughts about me, O God! They are innumerable!." (Psalms 139: 13-16 NLT)
Here the psalmist describes how God knew and created him in his mother's womb. Especially noteworthy is his declaration that even in the womb God had a plan for his life, which included the entire course of his life until the day of his death. As God beheld this "little one" in his mother's womb. He already had in mind plans and purposes and projects to be accomplished through that life.
"I knew you before I formed you in your mother's womb. Before you were born I set you apart and appointed you as my spokesman to the world." (Jeremiah 1:4 NLT)
Again we see God's involvement in the life of the unborn and His plan for this person's life.
I agree with your entire premise except I think you left out a few relevant variables that a person with a "Christian perspective" would argue. Some might call that lopsided logic. True the spirit cannot be destroyed, BUT God does have a plan for our physical bodies. " Taushina
"Originally Posted by Sophie
Taushina, thank you for your compliments, no the "fluff" doesn't bother me (I can't figure the icon thing out or I'd probably have a dozen of them in here myself), I live in Dallas, and the very first thing I thought when I read your post was, "Oh dear... I shouldn't have opened my big, fat mouth."
If we could have focused on numbers 1-3 I think we could have been okay, but based on "christian perspectives variables" 4-8 I can tell this is going to go straight from the frying pan into the fire ... once we added those additional constraints regarding biblical innerancy, limitations on the pre-existance and emmergance of spirit, and predestination of purpose we dove headfirst back into relativism. I'd hazzard a guess we could go on for days over literal/factual or historical/philisophical bible interpretation... and that really doesn't belong here... which as you appropriately pointed out was the reason you hadn't gone there in the first place. Since I was the one who started us down this this rabbit trail I'll take full responsibility (sorry everyone else! My bad!) and would be happy to continue it, for our own interests... however out of respect for the others who may not be as interested in theological debate why don't you start a new thread on "Abortion - Bible Debate" (or something) and let me know where to find you. Sound good?" Sophie
For those of you new to this thread, Sophie and I (Taushina) met in the "Abortion" forum under the topic "Health Issues". Sophie suggested that I start a new thread specifically for this topic. I'll copy and paste our conversation. Feel free to pick up where we left off, or add comments that you feel are pertinent to this topic.
"Hello all! Very interesting thread. I've enjoyed your comments. If you would forgive a newcommer's boldness, I would appreciate the opportunity to be heard, and would ask that you please allow me to interject some pro-choice logic from the a) christian perspective, b) a scientific perspective, c) historical perspective, and d) cultural relevatism perspective. Same as your Taushina's posts, please forgive spelling/grammatical errors. Thanks -
a) Spirit = Life. When God breathed life into Adam, the spirit (which was created in the image and likeness of God) was animated and brought forth into expression. The SLED acronym is great, but essentially irrelevant in that the essence of life is in the spirit which is eternal and can not be destroyed whether 1 wk old or 100 yrs old." Sophie
"Very well stated! I'll address your first premise and the others later if thats okay with you. With my prideful nature I would be inclined to offer a rebuttal to each and every one of your points, but thats just absurd. That way we're not playnig a game of "catch-up" and that way you have a chance to reply to each individual response rather than 5 or 6 of them!
I thought it would be wise not to argue on biblical grounds, but rather on general humanitarian grounds that appeal to all people. Since you have went forth with this, than I will (try) to offer a response for the sake of argument.
Secondly, I would like to commend you on your professionalism. I can learn a lot from you! (You don't mind my fluffiness do you?)
According to you, premise (a) is a "Christian Perspective".
1. Spirit = Life
2. God gives us our spirit.
3. Spirit cannot be destroyed.
(since this is a "christian perspective" some more variables need to be added, so we're not being biased)
4. The bible is absolute truth.
5. There is no such thing as pre-existing spirits.
6. God created the "spirit" at conception.
7. The Bible interprets itself.
8. God has a plan for each pesons life, to glorify Him.
"So God created people in his own image; God patterned them after himself; male and female he created them." (Genesis 1:27 NLT)
Because of this, human beings are INTRINSICALLY valuable and possess certain God-given rights. The biblical prohibition of murder is based specifically in the fact that man is created in God's image.
"...for to kill a person is to kill a living being made in God's image." (Genesis 9:6 NLT)
The second greatest commandment is that we should love our neighbor, and this is a universal command extending to every human being. Not only this, but every human being is a person for whom Christ died, which gives each person unspeakable value. On the Christian worldview, then, one single human being is worth more than the entire material universe. Because of their exalted view of man, Christians are deeply committed to the cause of human rights.
The Bible also suggests that human life begins not at birth but in the womb. There are a surprising number of biblical references to life in the womb. Some forty times the scripture refers to conception as the start of new life in the womb. Moreover, God is represented as caring about and even calling people while they are in the womb.
"You made all the delicate, inner parts of my body and knit me together in my mother's womb. Thank you for making me so wonderfully complex! Your workmanship is marvelous-and how well I know it. You watched me as I was being formed in utter seclusion, as I was woven together in the dark of the womb. You saw me before I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed. How precious are your thoughts about me, O God! They are innumerable!." (Psalms 139: 13-16 NLT)
Here the psalmist describes how God knew and created him in his mother's womb. Especially noteworthy is his declaration that even in the womb God had a plan for his life, which included the entire course of his life until the day of his death. As God beheld this "little one" in his mother's womb. He already had in mind plans and purposes and projects to be accomplished through that life.
"I knew you before I formed you in your mother's womb. Before you were born I set you apart and appointed you as my spokesman to the world." (Jeremiah 1:4 NLT)
Again we see God's involvement in the life of the unborn and His plan for this person's life.
I agree with your entire premise except I think you left out a few relevant variables that a person with a "Christian perspective" would argue. Some might call that lopsided logic. True the spirit cannot be destroyed, BUT God does have a plan for our physical bodies. " Taushina
"Originally Posted by Sophie
Taushina, thank you for your compliments, no the "fluff" doesn't bother me (I can't figure the icon thing out or I'd probably have a dozen of them in here myself), I live in Dallas, and the very first thing I thought when I read your post was, "Oh dear... I shouldn't have opened my big, fat mouth."
If we could have focused on numbers 1-3 I think we could have been okay, but based on "christian perspectives variables" 4-8 I can tell this is going to go straight from the frying pan into the fire ... once we added those additional constraints regarding biblical innerancy, limitations on the pre-existance and emmergance of spirit, and predestination of purpose we dove headfirst back into relativism. I'd hazzard a guess we could go on for days over literal/factual or historical/philisophical bible interpretation... and that really doesn't belong here... which as you appropriately pointed out was the reason you hadn't gone there in the first place. Since I was the one who started us down this this rabbit trail I'll take full responsibility (sorry everyone else! My bad!) and would be happy to continue it, for our own interests... however out of respect for the others who may not be as interested in theological debate why don't you start a new thread on "Abortion - Bible Debate" (or something) and let me know where to find you. Sound good?" Sophie
, actually its okay. :) My shift ended at 4:30 (mountain time), so I'm actually off right now. I work tomorrow (Friday) and Saturday. Those days are generally busy here, so if you don't get a reply until Tuesday don't be shocked. Hopefully other people will jump in on the discussion before then.
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