a man seeking wisdom

[GRANDSON OF ZEELA]

chickendad, I understand where you are comeing from !
Did you read the thread I started on 5/31/06 named; from the outside looking in. on page 4 of the chit chat forum ?
It's a condensed version of a though I had.

[chickendad]

Very good point, but our discussion was about God not interfearing with our everyday lives. Yes, if you read the Old Testament, the rules that were handed down while the Isrealites were on their way to the promise land were in effect, then no one would reach their heaven. Yes, according to the Bible, man is given free will, but the question is what happens to the ones who are sined against. Their free will is not taken into account when they get murdered, raped, or many other hidious crimes. Because of this, in my opinion, there are people out there who feel they can commit these crimes, then go pray and the slate is wiped clean each and every time. If the names are already written into the book of life as told by the Christain religion, where is the free will. Stories told us that crimes were unthought of in the old days. By the statement," No man shall come unto the father but thru me" is saying our Elders will have no heaven. Why don't we follow our old traditions only? The only ones saying those ways are wrong are those of the three main religions. If the white man hadn't come over, those ways would still be followed and on one would be the wiser. Some say they don't want to tell others what to do, but isn't saying that only thru Jesus will anyone see heaven like telling someone what to do. I just want to know what is wrong with living in harmony with Mankind, Nature, and all that is around. If living by those creeds we commit no harm, no foul, does anyone really think God/The Great Spirit would deny anyone a place in Heaven/Great Council Fire/Happy Hunting Grounds, whatever anyone calls Heaven. I have fought against the Iraqi's, I have seen the everyday man and woman, most are nice people just trying to make it thru their lives. I don't think because they don't believe in Jesus as their only way into Heaven, that they would be denied. Others in this world don't follow those beliefs, I think if their good The Great Spirit will grant each their place according to their deeds.

[GRANDSON OF ZEELA]

Chickendad, This scripture may help you understand a little better. : ST. JOHN CHAPTER 8 VERSES 1 - 12.
Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.
Now early in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people came to Him ; and He sat down and taught them.
3. Then the scribes and the Pharisees brought to Him a woman caught in adultery. And when they had set her in the midst,
4. they aid to Him, " Teacher, this woman was caught in adultery, in the very act,"
5. " Now Moses, in the law, commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do you say?"
6. This they said, testing Him, that they might have something of wich to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though He did not hear.
7. So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and said to them, " He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first. "
8. And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9. Then those who heard it, being convicted by their conscience, went out one by one, beginning with the oldest even to the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10. When Jesus raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her, " Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you? "
11. She said, " No one Lord " And Jesus said to her, " Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more."
12. Then Jesus spoke to them saying, " I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life."

The Hebrew people had some pretty stiff penalties for something that is a common happening in todays cultures.
They stone people to death for commiting adultery.

That BURNING LAKE OF FIRE is waiting for those people, who
continue rapeing, molesting, killing, Etc.

ST. MARK CHAPTER 9 VERSES 42 - 44
42. " But whoever causes one of these little one who beleive in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea."
43. " If your hand causes to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to Hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched - where Their worm does not die, And fire is not quenched"

The Creator gives us a FREE WILL.
If he didn't we would just be robots, pretty boring !
if God stops us from doing anything then we no longer have free will. That is why Rape, murder, and everyother wrong happens. And there are consequences for what we do.

LIVE ON !!

[GRANDSON OF ZEELA]

That's the question though. If Gods mercy and grace can be used later to forgive, what does that do for those who were raped, murdered, beaten, and any other hidious crimes. In my opinion, to control the people, tell them they can be forgiven and be brought back into God's graces appeals to the people. Don't get me wrong, I believe the Great Spirit does forgive us being humans. But if he/she cared about our daily lives, these things wouldn't happen. In the day of our Grand-Elders, banishment from the tribe or village for committing certain crimes was more effective than the fear of a hell. To be a person without a people was in effect to be dead. There was no second chance, you were forever cut off from your people. It was very effective, hidious crimes were unthough of until the white man came. Now with the three mainstream religions and the talk of forgiveness, commit the crime, get forgiven each and every time. Some could say that because of this forgiveness, crime has continued to climb. People have nothing to worry about as long as they seek forgiveness before they die.

[TKMJ Productions]

I don't think that one can use the words God and Creator interchangeably - because for most of us they are 2 different ends of the spectrum. As you say, The Creator is kind and loving and teaches us to learn from mistakes. Whereas the church's/nun's God is a vengeful and punishing one.

I just wanted to express my feelings on this - as I find the use of these words interchangeably confusing.

You must have been raised in the Roman Catholic Church like me. Basically there are 2 general types of Roman Catholic learning. You have Jesuit who believe in vengence and punishment, and Franciscan the ones who believe in forgivness.

Same church, same bible, same pope, same prayer books, but 2 ways of thinking. Call it an oxymoron if you will. It depends on how you were raised. I was raised with the tough nuns wheeling steel rulers in a catholic school. Them suckers hurt!!! (Jesuit priests and Urcline nuns)

My wife was also raised catholic but from a Franciscan order of priests and nuns. Her teachings about God are totally different. She was taught the God is caring, loving, and forgiving.

We use God, Creator, Father, etc as one being. Because to us He is the same.

Look at the prayer (Creed) "I believe in one God, Father allmighty, Creator of heaven and earth. It says it all right there. One God, Father, Creator. That's it, That's all. He is all the same to me.

[CandaePrincess]

you're all going to hell for questioning everything......





















chynaaaaaaaaa

[Singing Eagle]

I can see where you are coming from in fearing the Creator. However I was taught and believe that the Creator is very loving and forgiving. He guides me everyday. If I stray off a good path, He corrects me and helps me get back on the correct path. It's a process we all go through every day. Sure I make mistakes, everyone does. The Creator shows you what you have done wrong through your consenice. (is that spelled right?) It's up to you to correct it. If you don't correct the wrong doing, then you must live with it.
Just like you said, Free Will.

I don't think that one can use the words God and Creator interchangeably - because for most of us they are 2 different ends of the spectrum. As you say, The Creator is kind and loving and teaches us to learn from mistakes. Whereas the church's/nun's God is a vengeful and punishing one.

I just wanted to express my feelings on this - as I find the use of these words interchangeably confusing.

[chickendad]

That's the question though. If Gods mercy and grace can be used later to forgive, what does that do for those who were raped, murdered, beaten, and any other hidious crimes. In my opinion, to control the people, tell them they can be forgiven and be brought back into God's graces appeals to the people. Don't get me wrong, I believe the Great Spirit does forgive us being humans. But if he/she cared about our daily lives, these things wouldn't happen. In the day of our Grand-Elders, banishment from the tribe or village for committing certain crimes was more effective than the fear of a hell. To be a person without a people was in effect to be dead. There was no second chance, you were forever cut off from your people. It was very effective, hidious crimes were unthough of until the white man came. Now with the three mainstream religions and the talk of forgiveness, commit the crime, get forgiven each and every time. Some could say that because of this forgiveness, crime has continued to climb. People have nothing to worry about as long as they seek forgiveness before they die.

[GRANDSON OF ZEELA]

If everyone got what they had comming to them the minute after it happened, then Grace and Mercy would not be possible. We would all be damned, For it is written: " We are saved by Grace, not by works" Jesus was the ultimate sacrafice, His blood was shed for our sins. All we have to do is Beleive in Him, accept Him as our savior. He paid the price and all we have to do is accept his Grace.

There are too many people out there that call themselves
Christians, that don't have a clue about what grace, love, and forgiveness truely are. And with that my friends, I will
pass the pen.

Beleive what you will, I will not pass judgement on any of you !

I want to hear about your Elders and forefathers !!
You are all probably tire of my opinions. I am all ears !!

[chickendad]

To fear God " THE CREATOR " is often viewed as being wise !
Jesus Said " fear not what man can do to you " etc.
You will live on after the physical death.
But fear what god can do to you.
a burning lake of fire for an eternity doesn't sound to comforting to me.
So, yes, fear is used to control you.
In a sence, it's the same way your parents corrected you when you were a child, to keep you from harming yourself or someone else... or to obey them.
You have a choice, you can follow your ancestors teachings, or the teachings of the bible, or not to follow any teachings, etc.
Free Will. Live On !!!

Yes, they are stories written by man. But to the three mainstream religions, they are believed to be fact. Black and white, no gray. They are taught to follow those rules or go to hell. Our version of the Creator just wants us to honor him/her, all the spirits, Mother Earth, Father Shy, Grandmother Moon, Grandfater Sun, all our animal brothers and sisters, and so forth. If we don't, hell is not waiting for us. Each is taught that our place in the afterlife will be according to how we lived. Some of us are taught that the Great Spirit doesn't really concern himself/herself with our daily lives. What happens to us is what happens, like sh-- happens. We can ask for help from the spirits, but if it we don't get an answer, it doesn't mean they are against us. If God was really involved in our daily lives, cared about the good and punished the evil, then why does rape, murder, child molestation, and so forth happen. I know someone will say the bad will get theirs in the end. But if God was really concerned with our daily lives, they would get theirs now. Just my opinion, thanks for the peaceful debate.

[TKMJ Productions]

To fear God " THE CREATOR " is often viewed as being wise !
Jesus Said " fear not what man can do to you " etc.
You will live on after the physical death.
But fear what god can do to you.
a burning lake of fire for an eternity doesn't sound to comforting to me.
So, yes, fear is used to control you.
In a sence, it's the same way your parents corrected you when you were a child, to keep you from harming yourself or someone else... or to obey them.
You have a choice, you can follow your ancestors teachings, or the teachings of the bible, or not to follow any teachings, etc.
Free Will. Live On !!!

I can see where you are coming from in fearing the Creator. However I was taught and believe that the Creator is very loving and forgiving. He guides me everyday. If I stray off a good path, He corrects me and helps me get back on the correct path. It's a process we all go through every day. Sure I make mistakes, everyone does. The Creator shows you what you have done wrong through your consenice. (is that spelled right?) It's up to you to correct it. If you don't correct the wrong doing, then you must live with it.
Just like you said, Free Will.

[TKMJ Productions]

I am not trying to put down the three mainstream religions, I am trying to find out what is wrong with ours being the only one we follow. Though to guess what years or days meant back when the Bible was suppose to have been written, science has shown that that their was no Earth covering flood. Noah's flood is now possibly the result of a breaking of a nature dam near I think the Black Sea or Dead Sea. It flooded that area only. Our Elders were here and didn't die in a great flood according to science. Though some may not agree with science. For Noah and his sons to have tools and ability to build an ark, it had to be a time period we can trace. That time period is known to us, and we know there was other peoples living and triving in other lands. The story in my opinion is used to put fear in their followers to show what happens when you don't follow their rules. Sodom and Gamora (don't know how to spell them) were suppose to have been blown completely off the face of the Earth. Now sciencist believe they have found them and that they were not distroied. By having stories of floods, fire and brimstone, a group of leaders can bring fear into the people and control them. I've never heard any of our stories from our traditions of the Great Spirit destroying his people.

Remember the bible and all the "good books" were written by man. It was their thoughts and stories that went into the books.

I also have never heard of the Creator (Great Spirit) or whatever we wish to call Him, destroying His people, our ndn brothers and sisters. But remember we do have stories of Deer woman, skin walkers, and others who seem to portray the dark side. Remember "the Gand will get you if you don't watch out" when we were children? Scary stories to a child. Are they true or just stories to teach being honorable. Also remember, we do not have an all encompassing book like the bible or koran to follow. Our stories are still passed generation to generation. Some stories have been written down but have never been compiled into one book with some sort of a timeline.

Some are taught to fear the Creator while some are taught that the Creator is a caring and loving being.

It's all in the way one looks at it, and how one believes.

[GRANDSON OF ZEELA]

To fear God " THE CREATOR " is often viewed as being wise !
Jesus Said " fear not what man can do to you " etc.
You will live on after the physical death.
But fear what god can do to you.
a burning lake of fire for an eternity doesn't sound to comforting to me.
So, yes, fear is used to control you.
In a sence, it's the same way your parents corrected you when you were a child, to keep you from harming yourself or someone else... or to obey them.
You have a choice, you can follow your ancestors teachings, or the teachings of the bible, or not to follow any teachings, etc.
Free Will. Live On !!!

[chickendad]

I am not trying to put down the three mainstream religions, I am trying to find out what is wrong with ours being the only one we follow. Though to guess what years or days meant back when the Bible was suppose to have been written, science has shown that that their was no Earth covering flood. Noah's flood is now possibly the result of a breaking of a nature dam near I think the Black Sea or Dead Sea. It flooded that area only. Our Elders were here and didn't die in a great flood according to science. Though some may not agree with science. For Noah and his sons to have tools and ability to build an ark, it had to be a time period we can trace. That time period is known to us, and we know there was other peoples living and triving in other lands. The story in my opinion is used to put fear in their followers to show what happens when you don't follow their rules. Sodom and Gamora (don't know how to spell them) were suppose to have been blown completely off the face of the Earth. Now sciencist believe they have found them and that they were not distroied. By having stories of floods, fire and brimstone, a group of leaders can bring fear into the people and control them. I've never heard any of our stories from our traditions of the Great Spirit destroying his people.

[TKMJ Productions]

I agree.. if you just look at science and it's explanations, you could still make a comparison that it backs up the bible, but that's if you take in consideration that what they wrote about was how they saw things back then. Like the big bang theory..maybe it happened, but maybe that's how god got things going right? Maybe he caused the big bang... we won't know for sure till we pass over.

As for Noah, the bible is'nt the only place that Noah's story is recorded. It was recorded in various parts of the earth, some before the bible was even written.

OK Let's talk Noah. I believe that Noah was given the sign long time before the rains came. He had to have. I'm sure the ark took a long time to build. To house all of those animals and stuff, It had to be huge.

I'm also believe that the Creator gave everyone quite a few signs in the form of natural disasters as a warning. Noah was the only one who heeded the warnings that we know of. Therefor he survived. I do believe that there we also others who survived the disasters I speak of, but they are undocumented.

One last note: No one can put a true timeline between Genisis and Noah. It could have been a century as we know it or a million years.

Most of the books that have been written (Koran, Bible,etc) were all written by man in the words of the time. All have been translated into modern words so all can understand.
How much is fact? How much is fiction? And how much could not be understood and lost and was not translated?

There is so much we will never know, one must have faith and assume the teaching of the books are correct. I also believe that all the "good books" were written as a guide line for future generations.