OthelloBloke

[othellobloke]

Here's an explanation... this took some careful thinking to write. If you're going to reply 'we don't wanna hear it' don't bother - I know some won't.
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Obviously I'm not Indigenous (to North America at least). I'm from England, and know full well the atrocities in Britain's history - I'm not proud of them at all.

I always had a loose sense of right and wrong but never had such strong convictions before I came to Canada. I haven't lived outside the rez at all, and the only time I mix with non-native people is at my office. The people I associate and live with are native so I have a better understanding of native society, and culture than most. The first little while I was on Dalles (our rez) I didn't have any particular feeling one way or another about Canada's history as I knew next to nothing about it (I knew considerably more about American history).

After reading Kevin Annett's report on Canada's Holocaust it was like something switched in me. For a while I considered even going back to England even though I had two children, because I'm just another non-native on Native land. It's not about me being 'pro-native'...or 'a wannabe'. I don't want to be - its as simple as that. It's about a fundamental sense of what's right and wrong. Killing people for what they have isn't right - that's the way I see it.

The two sides are the killers and the killed. The good and the bad. Native and non-native. When I see native people fighting for causes that don't benefit them, or the land they live on and the only people who end up profiting are non-natives... it arouses the feeling in me that it's not right. Natives fought against non-natives for many hundred years, and all of sudden because the non-natives will always have superior military strength over natives, and the blatant murdering has finished... natives are joining to fight with the people who profited from their ancestors murder.

Maybe it is because I'm not indigenous that I can't grasp the concept... I live on a rez, have done for a long time and will be doing for the rest of my life, so I'm trying in vain to understand ALL aspects of my children's culture. This part is the one I keep getting stuck at.

It just seems (to me) there's something wrong with this conversation I had with someone I know below:

Ryan: you're in the military?
Ron: yep - 13years.
Ryan: but the military murdered your people.
Ron: I know.
Ryan: So you're okay fighting for the people that murdered your people?
Ron: yep.

When put in that context I simply can't understand why. I used the comparison of a black guy fighting for the KKK. Sorry if that causes offence but it's the only situation I can think of that's similar.

I am NOT out to offend anyone purposely, but I won't back down when someone attacks me for having conviction in my beliefs or when someone attacks me for the way I phrase a question. I apologise for anyone who might have been offended at the way I phrased questions, but I DID ask for people to provide me with alternate ways and nobody helped. I won't apologise for asking the questions or voicing an opinion.

For the record, and to correct NorthofAda... I do NOT use the word 'douchebag' at all - I haven't called anyone that - it was Zeke referring to me as that.

I'm still asking... someone read that conversation above, and please explain it to me instead of fobbing.

Ryan

[Singing Eagle]

Our people have suffered atrocities - that is true. However we have enormous potential to forgive and move on from the past.

This person that you know honors the past but moves forward as a warrior defending his home land. As other soldiers, we too are born here and we too have pride in this land. How can we not have willingness to serve when we are called to it?

Do you hold the past against everyone who ever did anything wrong to your people? If we did we would be the same as those who felt we were inferior - we can move beyond abuse and triumph over those who tried to oppress us. That we are still here is proof.

[2lineCarrandMorgan]

hello
i have not been reading all the post that stired the pot to a boil but i have some thought about what has been happing ,

im glad you live in a community of ppl who love thier familys and culcher it can only get better from there,im hopeing you have men that you can go to and speak to you about these things that you speak about.may thier wisdom help settel your heart belive some of the hardest thigs to understand help all of us grow to see our part and how to deal with the wrongs done to a ppl.blessing on your wife and children and all the more your family,i hope you a better understanding of the things that trouble you.but i can offer no answer becouse each one needs to find the answer that leads each to the truth and we are called each to our path, so far your is a amazion one from Englen to canda to a marrage with babies and in side a tribe i would say you have had many time to choise a path diffrent from your ansisters{ please forgive my spelling}and you have done so, this shows me you ar a strong man and follow your inner spirit but we can not always follow our own consel that is why the elders are there to help,we all have somthing that we need to turn to a ppl for understanding ,,best wishes in this
jennifer
2lines

[indian-heart-beat]

I hoped you'd explain things,
you'd change your 'language',
and I hoped you'd apologize.

You know that I wanted that apology- not for me though-
and I voted against you,

and I also posted that I hoped the poll would cause something.
I think that poll caused this thread. It worked. Like editing of your posts worked.

I hope you take this as a chance to change... you have PM.

[othellobloke]

that thread was a witchhunt, was petty, and wasn't mature at all. a few people on this forum greatly offended me by making direct comments about me and the type of person I am (not about my ancestors or the way they do things)... but I still would never have created a thread like that.

it caused anger at first, but then I realised the person could not help themselves so it's not stressing me. But it wasn't that poll that caused me to write this - it was an allegation of using immature American insults that caused me to write this.

There's not much about natives I don't understand... but the two things I don't are the dogged loyalty many abused native women AND men feel towards their abusive spouses... and of course the natives in the military. I asked for people to explain so I could understand something about another culture and people acted like they didn't want to educate. That's stupid. I asked for another way to phrase my questions and still nobody answered. That was stupid. A lot of stupid stuff has been said - not only by me - and I'm hoping this thread will prompt people to explain (of which one person already tried).

[othellobloke]

Our people have suffered atrocities - that is true. However we have enormous potential to forgive and move on from the past.

That's the part I don't understand - potential to forgive is a great thing once the other side has made amends. How can people forgive someone who's not sorry for what they did?

This person that you know honors the past but moves forward as a warrior defending his home land. As other soldiers, we too are born here and we too have pride in this land. How can we not have willingness to serve when we are called to it?

I could understand if natives benefited from the armed conflicts the U.S enters into but mostly they don't. When the U.S went into WW2, Somalia and Afghanistan, those were the business of EVERYONE regardless of their race or culture. How are natives benefiting from supporting the illegal occupation of Iraq? Still nobody has explained this to me.

Do you hold the past against everyone who ever did anything wrong to your people? If we did we would be the same as those who felt we were inferior - we can move beyond abuse and triumph over those who tried to oppress us. That we are still here is proof.

The way I see it is even if the only thing you can give the bad guys is a guilty conscience, then even that's enough. But when people 'move on'... without the bad guys apologising, that implies forgiveness which in turn lets the bad guys profit on the backs of murder. Just doesn't make sense to me

[Lakota_winyan]

its too complicated to explain..about why natives defend "our" country..but yet its simple enough..but again that is up to you and how you perceive things/life because you sound like jus b/c you live on a reserve and have children who are native? that gives you some sort of insight into "our" world..and I think thats what most people dislike..and it sound like kkk theology or philosophy to me..one way is usually a narrow way...and there is no room for anything...and you brought up why natives stay in abusive relationships..have you heard of love and the belief of it..but of course later they too will find out that its not what it seemed to be..but what does that have to with just natives..domestic violence occurs everywhere..and who brought murder to this new world? We weren't perfect but our nations were structured w/out jails/ and w/out military like we see today...and we didn't have a president per say..to order everybody to war...but I as a native would never ever profess to know more about brits jus by living there or questioning their ideology..we were murdered..massacred..sent to boarding schools..fought for yes the US whom we weren't even recognized as citizens but that goes back to warrior societies..what would you do if all of your land was taken from you and you were told to stop believing in your way of life and speaking your language..would you do what you are saying now? or would you try to save your nation for the next generations to come? Thats called survival and many of our tribal members still fight survival on a daily basis..its not just fighting the war..and yes we are still here...we could've been wiped out..if we made stupid decisions...but luckily for us our ancestors had wisdom in perserving our cultures, languages, spirituality etc..in that humble way..an understanding is a warrior will always protect his family even if he had to die...so thats simple enough to understand and in fighting for the US we also understand there probably will never be an apology but we continue one...just like always..because we cherish our life and those yet to come

[Blackbear]

I have mixed feelings about you. I see your points and I don't see a lack of intelligence but maybe a lack of understanding. For all your familiarization with natives and living on a reservation you cannot understand how we can fight for countries so there is still quite a bit more you need to learn.

I know it's hard when you get stuck on an ideal to see past that ideal to understand why someone does what they do and natives are not the easiest to understand sometimes.. and I do acknowledge that you asked to be educated but then when you hear the answers your replies just come off as a plain old "you're wrong" to the people who respond.

You don't have to accept their reasons as your own but you must respect them for theirs as you want to be respected for yours. There is nothing wrong with wanting to heal 7 generations of hurt and displacement for the sake of the next 7 generations and as natives we are finally in a place both politically and socially to do these things, be heard and be who we are or who we were.

Take the land claims and the boarding school compensations for example. Even as long as 20 years ago we would have the military on us like masters correcting bad dogs but it's not that way now. There are still problems but they are getting better. The governments are making more of an effort to hear us on our terms and treat us as the nations we are. Wrongs done to us in the past are at least being apologized for and compensated even if we had to struggle to get them.. but it's happening.

But the US and CAN are the nations we've had to deal with.. and continue to deal with. We know their laws we know their ways and have an idea what we are in for with them... should we not be allies against outside forces who threaten to take away what relationship we have with them? What state would our peoples be in if another power took over and would they still recognize our nations as separate entities or simply claim us as conquered because the US was conquered?

Maybe the iraq war does'nt benefit us, maybe it does. But it's obvious that those that joined feel a need of their services and a need to protect their own for whatever reason and that should always be respected. Don't you think?


My problem with you is how angrily you respond and as a moderator I don't appreciate having to monitor threads for language as often as I have for the last two days. Mispelling the word does'nt make it any less the swear word than it is. There are guidelines here that you need to read and follow please.

And as a hormonal, possibly pregnant woman I would advise not to be tested please.

[badmaninc]

Now this is a good discussion. I am just about as bad as the people who go to war and fight for Canadian and US government. I work as a parole officer in Canadian Federal corrections. We make up 3% of the population of Canada but almost 20% of those incarcerated. I do what I do because it does serve our people in the long run. Hopefully people can gain insight into us. With regard to staying in abusive relationships, that is not unique to Aboriginal/ndns. That has more to do with not knowing anything else and being afraid to take that unknown leap and try to make a better life for oneself. We don't forgive as a people, if we did then there wouldn't be so much lateral violence in our communities. There is rampant addictions abuse; domestic violence; sexual abuse; abuse of Elders; etc. If we all look at our communities, objectively, there is none in existence that are free from all of this. If you believe that then you are living in a place not on this earth. When people from our communities strive to make a better life for themselves, all of us in those same communities are quick to look for reasons why they aren't as ndn as us. Why they don't practice the traditions and culture. We all think we become better people if we drag somebody back down. In my home community, many people talk really good about God, the culture, living as our old people. These same people then still go drinking and committing forms of abuse(pick one). Others have gambling problems and spend all of their money. At powwows everybody jokes about spending their winnings at casino or bingo. Still others determine that it is alright to act like a sinner and then beg for forgiveness. I should be forgiven because I am an Elder. This Othellobloke offends people because he says this kind of thing; although he has no diplomacy skills and he has admitted he isn't ndn like us. If you don't like what he says, don't read his opinions or conjectures. I know that his opinions are shortsighted and he doesn't really have any answers. At least he isn't afraid to let people know how he feels. I missed most of the profanity so if anybody wants to let me know what was said I'd be willing to read 'em. AYE!.

[crazywolf]

Boozhoo niji,

OK number one, the reason why we fight with the people that committed acts of genocide against us: The reason is plain and simple. There are worse people out there than white people. There are places in this world where women have no respect, and by that I mean ZERO respect. There are places in this world where there is a severe intolerance to other people's religions. Its either their way or the highway, and their highway my niji is the one way up high over there in the spirit world. Finally there are people and countries in this world that would see the complete erradication of any people outside their own race. I know of one country that has the manpower and technology to do so, and I wonder why they are talking their time about doing it. (not meaning I want to see the rest of the world disappear, I am just playing devils advocate there and thinking stratigically.)

As far as non-natives trying to relate to natives, hmm thats a tougher one. I feel like you have to be a native to see things from that point of view, plain and simple. Its not like, "walk a few miles in my moccisans" or anything like that. You can go onto a reservation and feel sorry for the things that were done to us, know the difference between right and wrong and donate to charitable causes like NARF until the cows come home, but you will never understand what it means to be native, or understand us.

I feel like we see the world in a different light. I feel like there is a spiritual aspect to everything we do, something that my boss does not understand, and never will no matter how much I try to tell him. Our people have a love for this world that is unmatched by any other culture, and other cultures are finally waking up to the fact that the Earth Mother has not been feeling too good lately. Her death throws will be ours. We are all connected.

Derek

[Singing Eagle]

That's the part I don't understand - potential to forgive is a great thing once the other side has made amends. How can people forgive someone who's not sorry for what they did?



I could understand if natives benefited from the armed conflicts the U.S enters into but mostly they don't. When the U.S went into WW2, Somalia and Afghanistan, those were the business of EVERYONE regardless of their race or culture. How are natives benefiting from supporting the illegal occupation of Iraq? Still nobody has explained this to me.




The way I see it is even if the only thing you can give the bad guys is a guilty conscience, then even that's enough. But when people 'move on'... without the bad guys apologising, that implies forgiveness which in turn lets the bad guys profit on the backs of murder. Just doesn't make sense to me

Dude - I for one ain't gonna wait around for the government to apologise - they haven't been willing so why would I ever think that it would change. I know that I can overcome diversity and move on - that's all that matters to me.

As for Iraq and all that you said next I wasn't talking about that - I was generalising reasons why many NDNs would decide to serve. That was how I interpreted your question.

As for that last comment I don't give a rat's lil behind if anyone feels guilty for what has happened to our people - guilt is a useless emotion to me - having someone feel guilty isn't going to make me feel better. I'm the only one who can do that!

[kiowakat]

my opinion....we can't blame and hold Americans guilty that was then, this is now. .......like we're ever going to get an apology, thats a pipe dream..... so the next thing is move on......that was past history and we don't forget it, we learn from it, don't get me wrong, we have issues today (ie mascots, sterotyping, fakes and frauds and the list goes on)... how you are or not helping these issues today? are you helping other people to understand us today?... do you feel guilty or proud of how you are helping correct a wrong with todays issues?......

[Singing Eagle]

Boozhoo niji,

OK number one, the reason why we fight with the people that committed acts of genocide against us: The reason is plain and simple. There are worse people out there than white people. There are places in this world where women have no respect, and by that I mean ZERO respect. There are places in this world where there is a severe intolerance to other people's religions. Its either their way or the highway, and their highway my niji is the one way up high over there in the spirit world. Finally there are people and countries in this world that would see the complete erradication of any people outside their own race. I know of one country that has the manpower and technology to do so, and I wonder why they are talking their time about doing it. (not meaning I want to see the rest of the world disappear, I am just playing devils advocate there and thinking stratigically.)

As far as non-natives trying to relate to natives, hmm thats a tougher one. I feel like you have to be a native to see things from that point of view, plain and simple. Its not like, "walk a few miles in my moccisans" or anything like that. You can go onto a reservation and feel sorry for the things that were done to us, know the difference between right and wrong and donate to charitable causes like NARF until the cows come home, but you will never understand what it means to be native, or understand us.

I feel like we see the world in a different light. I feel like there is a spiritual aspect to everything we do, something that my boss does not understand, and never will no matter how much I try to tell him. Our people have a love for this world that is unmatched by any other culture, and other cultures are finally waking up to the fact that the Earth Mother has not been feeling too good lately. Her death throws will be ours. We are all connected.

Derek

Great post D!

[Singing Eagle]

Boozhoo niji,

OK number one, the reason why we fight with the people that committed acts of genocide against us: The reason is plain and simple. There are worse people out there than white people. There are places in this world where women have no respect, and by that I mean ZERO respect. There are places in this world where there is a severe intolerance to other people's religions. Its either their way or the highway, and their highway my niji is the one way up high over there in the spirit world. Finally there are people and countries in this world that would see the complete erradication of any people outside their own race. I know of one country that has the manpower and technology to do so, and I wonder why they are talking their time about doing it. (not meaning I want to see the rest of the world disappear, I am just playing devils advocate there and thinking stratigically.)

As far as non-natives trying to relate to natives, hmm thats a tougher one. I feel like you have to be a native to see things from that point of view, plain and simple. Its not like, "walk a few miles in my moccisans" or anything like that. You can go onto a reservation and feel sorry for the things that were done to us, know the difference between right and wrong and donate to charitable causes like NARF until the cows come home, but you will never understand what it means to be native, or understand us.

I feel like we see the world in a different light. I feel like there is a spiritual aspect to everything we do, something that my boss does not understand, and never will no matter how much I try to tell him. Our people have a love for this world that is unmatched by any other culture, and other cultures are finally waking up to the fact that the Earth Mother has not been feeling too good lately. Her death throws will be ours. We are all connected.

Derek

Great post D!

[Nezbah]

OB......

First of all, I think everyone is entitled to their own opinions, you included. However, I think more peeps were offended by some of the stuff you said, whether you intentionally or intentionally meant it. First, I should say....... think before you say something and really think it through before you post. I know I don't agree with someone on certain views but I have to be objective too. There are times I wanna sayyyyy @#$%&%$!!!!! to someone...... but hey, I have had to hold it back or really think before I actually say it. Words can be interpreted or even misinterpreted even when you don't mean or realize what you have said. Believe me some peoples minds aren't always there when they read a post...LOL.

In response to some of your quesitons, ya know people have been trying to understand us, well us Natives, for years...... Why this or why that..... This is simple, stop asking why....... Sometimes I still don't understand myself....hahah. I think the more you ask why...... the less you'll understand.....

As far as the natives fighting wars, well some of our nations have always been warriors, either for our own tribes, our own country, and even our own families. That's how I have been raised, fight to the end. Some of our native soldiers also feel they should honor their grandfathers who have fought in wars by being warriors themselves. I could not even tell you how many young men enlist because Grampa Yazzie was a soldier too..... That's how some of our young men and women were raised, you honor the elders. So I am sure many of our native men and women have different reasons why they enlist or fight these wars. But I have to respect their choices, I can't condemn it. I don't agree with this war, not at all, but I also don't codemn our soldiers in fighting it, especially native ones.

Please also understand, the problems on our reservations are no different than problems from anywhere else in the world. Everyone, be it black,white, native, etc have the same problems whether they are rich or poor, etc. Life's problems don't just happens to Natives.

All I can say..... maybe you'll find the answer your looking for when you stop looking. I know as a Native, I don't look for anyone to pity me or feel sorry for me. I can take care of myself, my family, my son, and my friends, as a strong native woman should. I hope one day you'll find that (what we call in Navajo....Hozho'...... harmony and peace within ourselves that we live in balance). You don't have to be native to find that.

But, I come to these forums to learn, laugh, and communicate with others from all over the country who I don't get to talk to everyday. Occasionally a good debate will flare up but it shouldn't get all ugly because someone expresses their own opinion. Remember to stop and think before you post. Believe me, haha, I have had to reread and rewrite many posts (including this one) that I have wrote. I even have to not think of all those @#[email protected]#%!! words I have in my head...... I am sure I am not the only one....

So take it easy and actually enjoy powwows.com..... I guess I will have to put my pitchfork away now.......haha. Oh wait, I think its waiting for Tanees now...... someone has to poke him around.....ayeeeee