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  • Read the Ross books in order. He has an evolving understanding. In his later books, he says he got some things wrong in Dancing With A Ghost.

    His interpretations and suggestions are not uncontroversial. His experiences were largely with isolated communities in Kenora District. He is an outsider looking in, with a desire to try to understand why dominant culture norms and those of the communities he served were so different. He generalizes a touch too broadly. It needs to be remembered that as an attorney he was heavily involved in attempting to remediate the dysfunction in some of these communities. This colors his experiences and conclusions.

    So, take what he offers as what it is -- an informed non-Native voice. He even admits he got things wrong and may not even know it.

    Comment


    • At least he is aware of being wrong and to that matter he says the truth.


      As an observation from outside the US, to order some books to reasonable price can be a daunting challenge. Sellers in the US, even amazon do not ship always outside the US. Amazon.de does not always offer the sought books and some reseller charge a profiteering price.

      Have a nice Sunday.
      Those who know do not write and those who write may not know. Frank W. Louis, No such Agency

      True peace between nations will only happen when there is true peace within people’s souls.
      Black Elk

      “Tell me, and I will listen.
      Show me, and I will understand.
      Involve me, and I will learn.”
      Lakota Proverb

      God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
      Courage to change the things I can,
      And wisdom to know the difference.
      Living one day at a time,
      Enjoying one moment at a time,
      Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace.
      (Reinhold Niebuhr, but the origin is debated)

      Comment


      • Finished Dancing with a ghost. Continue with Returning to the Teachings.

        First remarkable point of his book to me is his story on page 2 Chapter One about the feast of the Cree for the Mohawk and how through their respective "culture rules" the perception was created that both were each other intentionally insulting while both intended just the opposite of insulting; to show respect according to their individual culture rules.

        He is offering his opinion as he has experienced his exposure to the situation. It has to be deeply influenced by the task he was given. That can not be denied.

        The value of his contribution is that even if wrong and debated controversial it opens the way of debate or reflection to find a way through the mist.

        There is another story he uses to close his book on page 211.

        It seems that the Anglican and Roman Catholic missionaries, each with their own churches in the community, had been waging a fierce battle to see which church would convert the largest number of pagan souls. The chief found this struggle disruptive of harmony within the village, and decided that he must do something to settle the issue. His response was to write identical notes to each of the competing churches. In those notes he promised that he would eagerly lead all of his people into either church, as soon as the missionaries agreed among themselves whose God was the real God; in the meantime, he urged them to confine the argument ti themselves.

        I (Rupert Ross) suspect that he understood them far better than they thought he did.
        If it wouldn't be so sad, it is good for laughing which I did.
        I agree to Rupert Ross assessment. They have not settle that issue among themselves for almost a 700 years and continue not to do so.
        Those who know do not write and those who write may not know. Frank W. Louis, No such Agency

        True peace between nations will only happen when there is true peace within people’s souls.
        Black Elk

        “Tell me, and I will listen.
        Show me, and I will understand.
        Involve me, and I will learn.”
        Lakota Proverb

        God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
        Courage to change the things I can,
        And wisdom to know the difference.
        Living one day at a time,
        Enjoying one moment at a time,
        Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace.
        (Reinhold Niebuhr, but the origin is debated)

        Comment


        • Interrupted reading Returning to the teaching.

          I have a pile of books to read (I am a book worm all my life since I can read) which I have put in a sequence to read which groups the books into themes. There are two major stacks.

          On Monday a book was delivered which I had intended to put on the second stack for later reading. Holding back the estimated more interesting books.

          The book is "The reluctant Pilgrim", written by Roger Welsch.

          I could not lay down this book but had to read it instantly. There was no way to do otherwise. Irritating as the other books went onto the second stack without the urgent feeling to read them at once and laying Rupert Ross's second book aside.

          That Roger Welsch wrote this book only at age 78 is well justified. The stories he tells are personal and are stories you might only share after long time and long thoughts with very close relatives. It is remarkable that he wrote this book and I am grateful that he did.

          The stories he tells are credible true. His arguing, commenting, describing the point of view of organized church against those who can tell similar stories as he does are all too true. If one ever experience something as Roger Welsch describes in his stories you better never tell a representative of any organized church.

          While Roger Welsch is very eloquent I would put it much simpler.
          I have trouble with the ground crews of heaven. Recently one of the organized church assured me, that his church is in the possession of the only and absolute truth.

          A lot of whatever mysterious or spirituality is in the bible has been and is manipulated by interpreting of those in the church who derive power and material benefit of that for now almost 2000 years.
          Those who know do not write and those who write may not know. Frank W. Louis, No such Agency

          True peace between nations will only happen when there is true peace within people’s souls.
          Black Elk

          “Tell me, and I will listen.
          Show me, and I will understand.
          Involve me, and I will learn.”
          Lakota Proverb

          God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
          Courage to change the things I can,
          And wisdom to know the difference.
          Living one day at a time,
          Enjoying one moment at a time,
          Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace.
          (Reinhold Niebuhr, but the origin is debated)

          Comment


          • Completed Returning to the teaching.

            More difficult to read to get some understanding and comprehension about what Rupert Ross is writing.

            He is describes his experience and thoughts form his point of view involved within the justice system and the people of the first nation.

            Nobody should expect the one path to success but an outline of possible considerations or to tell what only he can tell.

            I would expect controversy discussion from both side of the cultures. I think that his views contain elements which all can consider to put them into effective use.

            Perhaps what he describes may work in smaller communities of 1500 people more easily than in the more anonymity of a town of 250000 people form many directions.

            His view is through the task he had, a very special one. It will not work everywhere on all occasions. It is limited and be bound to the character of people.

            Before starting with his third book Indigenous Healing, I read Roger Welsch's book "Uncle Smoke Stories" for relaxation.
            Broken Arrow
            Signal Corps
            Last edited by Broken Arrow; 07-06-2017, 11:32 AM.
            Those who know do not write and those who write may not know. Frank W. Louis, No such Agency

            True peace between nations will only happen when there is true peace within people’s souls.
            Black Elk

            “Tell me, and I will listen.
            Show me, and I will understand.
            Involve me, and I will learn.”
            Lakota Proverb

            God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
            Courage to change the things I can,
            And wisdom to know the difference.
            Living one day at a time,
            Enjoying one moment at a time,
            Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace.
            (Reinhold Niebuhr, but the origin is debated)

            Comment


            • A few novels for your next assignment, should you choose to undertake it:

              Leslie Silko, Gestohlenes Land wird ihre Herzen fressen; Zürich : Luchterhand-Literaturverl, 1992.

              or in the original English: Leslie Silko, Ceremony; New York: Penguin Books, 2006.


              Susan Powers, The Grass Dancer; Berkley: Berkley Press, 1995.


              LeAnne Howe, Miko Kings; Aunt Lute Books, 2007.


              James Welch The Heartsong of Charging Elk; Anchor Books, 2001.


              Louise Erdrich, The Antelope Wife; Harper, reprint, 2012.


              N. Scott Momaday, The Way to Rainy Mountain; University of New Mexico Press, 1976.


              I'll stop now.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by OLChemist View Post
                A few novels for your next assignment, should you choose to undertake it:
                I'll stop now.


                I put them on the list of books to read.

                I have 15 books still to read. Question is, what order is a useful one.

                Roger Welsch Uncle Smoke Stories
                Rupert Ross Indigenious Healing

                Virginia Irving Amstrong I have spoken
                T.C. McLuhan Touch the Earth
                Dee Brown Burry my heart at Wounded Knee
                James R. Walker, edited by Raymond J. DeMallic Lakota Belief and Ritual **
                Luther Standing Bear Land of the Spotted Eagle
                Roger Welsch Touching the Fire
                Roger Welsch Omaha Tribal Myths and Trickster Tales
                Erdos, Alfonso Ortiz American Indian Myths and Legends *
                Joseph Marshall III Third Winter of the holy iron
                Joseph Marshall III Returning to the Lakota Way
                Julian Rice Black Elk's Story **
                Julian Rice Deer Woman and Elk Man by Ella Deloria
                Julian Rice The Buffalo People by Ella Deloria
                Julian Rice Iron Hawk by Ella Deloria
                Ella Deloria Dakota Texts

                * may be questionable

                ** may be read behind each other

                That will take some time to read the books within reasonable time.

                It seems, I should visit your books loan.
                Broken Arrow
                Signal Corps
                Last edited by Broken Arrow; 07-06-2017, 12:56 PM.
                Those who know do not write and those who write may not know. Frank W. Louis, No such Agency

                True peace between nations will only happen when there is true peace within people’s souls.
                Black Elk

                “Tell me, and I will listen.
                Show me, and I will understand.
                Involve me, and I will learn.”
                Lakota Proverb

                God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
                Courage to change the things I can,
                And wisdom to know the difference.
                Living one day at a time,
                Enjoying one moment at a time,
                Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace.
                (Reinhold Niebuhr, but the origin is debated)

                Comment


                • Completed Rupert Ross's third book Indigenous Healing.

                  It was difficult to read in my opinion.

                  I think, so each of his books can be read alone, it is wiser to read them in the order as they have been written in time. Reading in this order I see that he changed his point of view with developing understanding of partial understanding of point views of the native communities he was serving in his assignment.

                  His writing is aiming it seems to me at the the members of the First Nations as well as to the non First Nation members of Canada. As he comes to the conviction that there is not a single solution as remote communities even within a same tribe take different point of views he nevertheless does what he seems to see as he task, initiating thinking about ways to live a better live and what of the European System of Justice does not work not only in your world but in the white mans world likewise.

                  Sigh, it remains a difficult series of books to read and as he says he may even be wrong.

                  There is something else, reading his books does not offer the experience of live with real people and real living with the problems and searching for ways to overcome the worse effects of a long period of neglecting the peoples rights and lessons learned in their culture.

                  I have decided to continue with Luther Standing Bears book Land of the Spotted Eagle.
                  Those who know do not write and those who write may not know. Frank W. Louis, No such Agency

                  True peace between nations will only happen when there is true peace within people’s souls.
                  Black Elk

                  “Tell me, and I will listen.
                  Show me, and I will understand.
                  Involve me, and I will learn.”
                  Lakota Proverb

                  God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
                  Courage to change the things I can,
                  And wisdom to know the difference.
                  Living one day at a time,
                  Enjoying one moment at a time,
                  Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace.
                  (Reinhold Niebuhr, but the origin is debated)

                  Comment


                  • Ruth Beebe Hill Hant Yo

                    Somebody gave me the book "Hanta Yo" by Ruth Beebe Hill.

                    A google search shows that there are very critical views towards this book.

                    What can I do with this book without loosing my way? Can I see what the critics say about the book? Give the books so far read, me the chance to recognize what is not the truth and what is wishful thinking on the side of the author and his story teller?

                    And t here are surely much more questions I can ask to myself.
                    Those who know do not write and those who write may not know. Frank W. Louis, No such Agency

                    True peace between nations will only happen when there is true peace within people’s souls.
                    Black Elk

                    “Tell me, and I will listen.
                    Show me, and I will understand.
                    Involve me, and I will learn.”
                    Lakota Proverb

                    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
                    Courage to change the things I can,
                    And wisdom to know the difference.
                    Living one day at a time,
                    Enjoying one moment at a time,
                    Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace.
                    (Reinhold Niebuhr, but the origin is debated)

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Broken Arrow View Post
                      Somebody gave me the book "Hanta Yo" by Ruth Beebe Hill.

                      A google search shows that there are very critical views towards this book.

                      What can I do with this book without loosing my way?

                      Kindling springs to mind or hanging it on the nail in the outhouse, since Sears catalogs are thin on the ground these days, LOL. I was assigned this book in a college course. I was young and afraid of profs back then, so there were survivors, LOL. Today, there wouldn't be.

                      ***** F-5 Rant Warning ******

                      First of all, the author is very well acquainted with the ethnographic literature on the Lakota. If you have even a passing acquaintance with this body of work, you can go through and pick out the influences of individual scholar's works, including some fairly -- uh -- idiosyncratic observations. Yet somehow she missed the meat of the most insightful works, especially those by Ella Deloria and Helen Blish.

                      Second, some of the material is by Lakota standards downright twisted and/or pornographic. At one point, the main character commits a gross sacrilege, that would have invited serious misfortune upon his family. There are sex scenes which shred Lakota matrimonial rules of behavior. And the descriptions of the treatment of captives owes more to the dominant culture's dark fears than the codes of behavior imposed by the warrior societies and Lakota morality. The philosophy espoused owes more to Objectivism than to Lakota thought, as Demallie's delightful shredding of the novel points out.

                      I'm not equipped to debate the English to proto-Dakota to Lakota to English, or whatever path was taken to tortured English syntax used in the --shall we say -- turgid prose. But trust me the novel's depiction of Lakota life is a distorted as it's English syntax.


                      "Ayn Rand Meets Hiawatha", R. J. DeMaille, reprinted in ASAIL, Dec 1979

                      (Note that the numbers in the above article indicate a shift to a different author's review.)

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by OLChemist View Post
                        Kindling springs to mind or hanging it on the nail in the outhouse, since Sears catalogs are thin on the ground these days.

                        ***** F-5 Rant Warning ******
                        That' is a clear statement. A German short version "Brennholz und Klopapier". Oh, oh. Very unkind if not evil, the last one. Though Klopapier serves a very necessary task.

                        Originally posted by OLChemist View Post
                        First of all, the author is very well acquainted with the ethnographic literature on the Lakota. If you have even a passing acquaintance with this body of work, you can go through and pick out the influences of individual scholar's works, including some fairly -- uh -- idiosyncratic observations. Yet somehow she missed the meat of the most insightful works, especially those by Ella Deloria and Helen Blish.

                        Second, some of the material is by Lakota standards downright twisted and/or pornographic.

                        The philosophy espoused owes more to Objectivism than to Lakota thought, as Demallie's delightful shredding of the novel points out.


                        [URL="https://facultystaff.richmond.edu/~rnelson/asail/SAILns/34.html"]"Ayn Rand Meets Hiawatha", R. J. DeMaille, reprinted in ASAIL, Dec 1979[/URL}

                        Than it may be worse. I got a German translation. I'll push it to the end of the bench and read it first, if I think I am prepared to read it.

                        Originally posted by OLChemist View Post
                        But trust me the novel's depiction of Lakota life is a distorted as it's English syntax.
                        I rest my trust in you.

                        James Welsch "The Heartsong of Charging Elk" arrived today.

                        Well I am tasked with the decision which book to read in which order but I have an idea to keep my way balanced.
                        Those who know do not write and those who write may not know. Frank W. Louis, No such Agency

                        True peace between nations will only happen when there is true peace within people’s souls.
                        Black Elk

                        “Tell me, and I will listen.
                        Show me, and I will understand.
                        Involve me, and I will learn.”
                        Lakota Proverb

                        God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
                        Courage to change the things I can,
                        And wisdom to know the difference.
                        Living one day at a time,
                        Enjoying one moment at a time,
                        Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace.
                        (Reinhold Niebuhr, but the origin is debated)

                        Comment


                        • Luther Standing Bear

                          Land of the Spotted Eagle.

                          Considering that it was written about 80 years ago, it is a timeless great reading.

                          True words he has spoken. When I came upon page 221-222 I read

                          You shall not kill.
                          You shall not lie.
                          You shall not steal.
                          You shall not commit adultery.

                          That is very familiar and sad as it is, too many people have not and do not live up to those words. The second one is perhaps the most difficult rule. I do not have the absolute truth on anything. Therefore I read it as tell the truth as you perceive it and stay to that truth of yours perceiving. Be aware that your perceiving is never absolute and may be wrong.

                          The broken treaties, I always have to think about the old roman principle pacta sunt servanta. Treaties have been broken faster and faster and there are even justifications by willfully breaking treaties because a greater profit can be maid even if compensations are paid. This is a sick moral.

                          So sadness arises I do not want to get angry because anger leads to hate and nothing good can come by anger and hate.
                          Those who know do not write and those who write may not know. Frank W. Louis, No such Agency

                          True peace between nations will only happen when there is true peace within people’s souls.
                          Black Elk

                          “Tell me, and I will listen.
                          Show me, and I will understand.
                          Involve me, and I will learn.”
                          Lakota Proverb

                          God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
                          Courage to change the things I can,
                          And wisdom to know the difference.
                          Living one day at a time,
                          Enjoying one moment at a time,
                          Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace.
                          (Reinhold Niebuhr, but the origin is debated)

                          Comment


                          • I'm rereading The Physics and Chemistry of Color by Kurt Nassau. I'm trying to put together a pair of talks on color and gemstones for the lapidary/metalsmithing club. I need to brush up on my band theory and crystal field theory.

                            (I also need to figure out how I'm going cover the high points of about 6 weeks of college chemistry on atomic and molecular orbitals in 4 power point slides, LOL. All together now let's say: angular momentum quantum number, degeneracy and Jahn Teller distortion. The second talk on physical optics and minerals is going to be a real roller coaster ride - refraction, reflection, diffraction, interference, scatter and dispersion in 60 mins.)

                            Comment


                            • Sigh.

                              38 to 35 years ago I was accustomed with band theory but were I am now there is no need for it. The content of The Physics and Chemistry of Color brings back thoughts on the past and the exciting times traveling the road of learning and doing. I fear I already rusted too much.

                              6 weeks of college chemistry (don't know how many hours teaching in those 6 weeks are) in 4 power point slides? You shall put that in a 4 Minute lecture? (1 slide per minute)



                              60 minutes for all mentioned themes. Ouch. If you have trained (scientific) people as listeners you must presuppose knowledge else it is a demanding reduction of science for normal people. About scattering you can talk for days and days especially if mathematics is included.

                              I pray for you. At the same time I would very much like to listen to your your lessons.

                              Sigh, I know that I can't be there.
                              Those who know do not write and those who write may not know. Frank W. Louis, No such Agency

                              True peace between nations will only happen when there is true peace within people’s souls.
                              Black Elk

                              “Tell me, and I will listen.
                              Show me, and I will understand.
                              Involve me, and I will learn.”
                              Lakota Proverb

                              God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
                              Courage to change the things I can,
                              And wisdom to know the difference.
                              Living one day at a time,
                              Enjoying one moment at a time,
                              Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace.
                              (Reinhold Niebuhr, but the origin is debated)

                              Comment


                              • It is a mixed audience. The core of the club are employees and family members of a local aviation/defense contractor. Recently the membership of the parent organization, which runs all the clubs, has opened the corporate participation to include a ton of health care and accounting firms. While I know I have at least 3 MS/PhD chemists, a handful of engineers, a mathematician, a couple of programmers, and a trio of secondary school science teachers, I have a lot of non-scientists. Many old enough that what high school/college chemistry they had was long ago and may not have covered s, p, d, & f orbitals.

                                So, I need to do a quick, qualitative intro to atomic orbitals, quantization, absorption, selection rules and symmetry. Fun and painless without too much hand waving and "a miracle occurs." You can't talk about color in minerals without d-orbitals and transition metal ions.

                                Comment

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