Is Redskins a derogatory term?

[RestlessN8iv]

This is just my opinion, but....

To those of you saying there are more important things with which to concern ourselves, I have to ask: Are we really limited to only addressing one specific issue at a time?

I'm sorry, but to me that seems like not only a massive cop out, but one with endless potential.

"Why worry about mascots when we have more important things to worry about, like poverty? - Why worry about poverty when we have more important things to worry about, like alcohol and drug abuse? - ETC"

By the end of the day you're likely to throw your hands in the air and give up.



Someone has already put it perfectly in this thread. The more we allow ourselves to be characterized and ignored the harder it's going to be for anyone (including many Indians) to take the issues facing American Indians seriously.

The opposite of love is not hate, but indifference, and having a NFL team called "Redskins" a known racial slur for American Indians is just ONE example of the indifference the rest of the nation feels about us. To accept, tolerate, or otherwise permit such indifference is in my mind no different than consenting to crawl back into our holes, and die quietly.

Are you so easily dissuaded? Are you so easily conquered? Have you forgotten that a journey of a thousand miles must begin as a single step?

[muskrat_skull]

I think it just sets a bad example to have a team called the "redskins" because it focuses on skin color. I would have the same problem with whiteskins, yellowskins or blackskins. I think the team can change names without it being a big problem, except to people resistant to change, and that is their problem. Just because you are comfortable with something doesn't mean its right. There's lots of lousy sports team names, people get used to them and suddenly, they aren't lousy anymore.

In ancient Egypt, the "red Egyptian" wasn't called that due to red skin, but due to his nation affiliation and its colors, which were red.

We call white hillbillies rednecks and they call ndns redskins. Cracker comes from "dirt floor cracker" from back when they had cracker barrels in stores, which had dirt or dirty floors. A cracker would be dropped or fall on the dirty floor. It was a way to refer to dirty faced white people, like saying white trash, they weren't nothin' but dirt floor crackers...

[CandaePrincess]

Agreed we have bigger fish to fry.

However, the more the American public sees Indians as mascot characatures, the harder it is to take Indians as a whole, seriously.

I guess seeing my daughters bullied and called dirty redskins on their school bus in the Washington DC area has made this personal.

You would think as diverse as the ethnicity is in the DC area, there would be more tolerance. Sounds like some petty jealousy as usual with mean girls. What's worse is that even the boys are starting to act like females now with them even talking about girls as well. It's disgusting. Esp when you see parents get in on it too, then you wonder how the kids turned out so bad. Tell your girls to keep their heads up and school is soooo not how life is going to actually be. Hope things get better!

[running_with_buffs]

[MENTION=11084]Zeke[/MENTION] ..just asking guy how is that a dc issue? If it was your kids getting treated like that would it be a kansas city issue?..I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that some of these kids folks are die hard washington fans..and when they here there folks talking about oh those indians are taking the team to court then I imagine nothing good comes outa there mouths about indians...so how is that a dc problem? Is dc suppossed to censor everybody from calling fellow classmates dirty redskins...or other derogatory names of other races of people

[muskrat_skull]

It is worse in some areas of the country. In Ohio, I didn't really hear much other than just the usual really poor way of talking about, teaching, and everything else regarding ndns, the ignorant or romanticized stuff. Oh, except later in life, the "squaw" thing from non-ndn men, I guess that is pretty widespread, as is most anti-women stuff.

Down south now I was surprised I didn't hear much, they were too busy hating African Americans and yankees. In the 60s when I was down here it was bad, people weren't talking they were burning crosses.

Then I went out west as a teenager...OMG, I heard names and things I never knew about it was bad. And it wasn't ethnic jokes, it was pure deep hatred and white people wanting to kill indians just like they were wolves eating their chickens, just horrible stuff. I really started hating alot of white people when I went out there. And it seemed totally unprovoked, just the way these people wanted to be.

If my kids were being talked that way at school, I'd be dealing with that. I think that kind of thing comes right from the parents, not the kids themselves. If its not that people use to make racist remarks than they will invent something. The problem isn't really the particular words so much or society's total screw up in dealing with minorities, its the hatred, sickness, and meanness underneath it. Lots of people are that way, it just comes out in different ways, some as racism.

[Toolbox]

To those of you saying there are more important things with which to concern ourselves, I have to ask: Are we really limited to only addressing one specific issue at a time?

I'm sorry, but to me that seems like not only a massive cop out, but one with endless potential.

"Why worry about mascots when we have more important things to worry about, like poverty? - Why worry about poverty when we have more important things to worry about, like alcohol and drug abuse? - ETC"

By the end of the day you're likely to throw your hands in the air and give up.



Someone has already put it perfectly in this thread. The more we allow ourselves to be characterized and ignored the harder it's going to be for anyone (including many Indians) to take the issues facing American Indians seriously.

The opposite of love is not hate, but indifference, and having a NFL team called "Redskins" a known racial slur for American Indians is just ONE example of the indifference the rest of the nation feels about us. To accept, tolerate, or otherwise permit such indifference is in my mind no different than consenting to crawl back into our holes, and die quietly.

Are you so easily dissuaded? Are you so easily conquered? Have you forgotten that a journey of a thousand miles must begin as a single step?

I don't think anyone is denying it as a problem. Think of it this way, you have a whole list of issues all of which need to be addressed and require some solution. Which do you put more energy into, a derogatory title or an economic problem? Essentially while you state that a title is offensive when someone uses it you shouldn't put a whole lot of time and energy fighting it unless you really have the man power to back it up as well as work on other problems.

These things tend to come up as fads that soon die out leaving only a few diehard supporters fighting. Look at "Idle No More", they gained rapid popularity and within a few weeks of Chief Spence ending her hunger strike and talking with officials Idle No More fell by the way side. Don't misread that as it's still not an ongoing movement it's just that it's falling in popularity.

WhoMe is right, if nothing is said or done then it becomes in a way acceptable BUT is anyone here directly implying that we don't give it any attention? I don't think so.


Maybe I'm thinking too much like a project manager here when really it shouldn't be thought of in that fashion... who knows. LOL.

[RestlessN8iv]

I don't think anyone is denying it as a problem. Think of it this way, you have a whole list of issues all of which need to be addressed and require some solution. Which do you put more energy into, a derogatory title or an economic problem? Essentially while you state that a title is offensive when someone uses it you shouldn't put a whole lot of time and energy fighting it unless you really have the man power to back it up as well as work on other problems.

I see your point but again (respectfully) that's a cop-out.
First of all to see, acknowledge, and understand something is wrong, and yet take no action is to me nothing short of an abomination to reason.

You ask which problem should we put more effort. I ask in turn: How much effort does it take to hash tag a tweet, write a letter, or sign a partition?

Unlike some of the "bigger problems" the mascot issue doesn't require a complex socio-economic solution. It primarily requires that you make your voice heard, and even that's pretty simple nowadays. You don't have to form a picket line, or perform an act of self immolation on the steps of the DC stadium just to draw attention to the issue.

These things tend to come up as fads that soon die out leaving only a few diehard supporters fighting. Look at "Idle No More", they gained rapid popularity and within a few weeks of Chief Spence ending her hunger strike and talking with officials Idle No More fell by the way side. Don't misread that as it's still not an ongoing movement it's just that it's falling in popularity.

I fail to see your point. These creatures always rear their ugly heads when they think people are looking. Always have, always will. Remember how 10 years ago everyone pretended to give a quarter of a crap about Africa? Every cause has it's summer soldiers, and sunshine patriots who bravely turn their tails and flee when the going gets tough... or they get bored whichever comes first.

But these are usually not the people who make any notable difference way or the other.

WhoMe is right, if nothing is said or done then it becomes in a way acceptable BUT is anyone here directly implying that we don't give it any attention? I don't think so.

That's exactly what it looks like to me.
When the subject comes up, and people immediately react by saying "Meh, we got bigger fish to fry". they are implying that the very topic is unworthy of notice.

[muskrat_skull]

I see your point but again (respectfully) that's a cop-out.
First of all to see, acknowledge, and understand something is wrong, and yet take no action is to me nothing short of an abomination to reason.

You ask which problem should we put more effort. I ask in turn: How much effort does it take to hash tag a tweet, write a letter, or sign a partition?

Unlike some of the "bigger problems" the mascot issue doesn't require a complex socio-economic solution. It primarily requires that you make your voice heard, and even that's pretty simple nowadays. You don't have to form a picket line, or perform an act of self immolation on the steps of the DC stadium just to draw attention to the issue.

Just to provide another point of view, it is very "European/American/white" that people "take action" and "make themselves heard" and its a racist society that demands that. The idea that the "squeaky wheel gets the grease" is simply culturally biased.

People should not have to "act" to not be discriminated against. And there are different types of "actions" including "the action of nonaction" that can be effective.

Signing petitions and "tweeting" just pollutes alot, wastes electricity and paper and energy that could otherwise be directed in other ways. If you and others care, the best way to deal with it is to make pointed statements in publications that matter and to the management of the team, and to boycott and otherwise not support anyone or anything having to do with the team. Even if that means you never watch another game, buy any sports gear, etc. A single web page containing your purpose, the mfgrs and companies and agencies you wish to boycott and why, that you could direct people to would be sufficient.

The bottom line is the only thing that corporate America understands. Screaming and tweeting and posturing is patently white American and completely ineffective.

However, most men will not stop watching their beloved sports shows, no matter what.

I fail to see your point. These creatures always rear their ugly heads when they think people are looking. Always have, always will. Remember how 10 years ago everyone pretended to give a quarter of a crap about Africa? Every cause has it's summer soldiers, and sunshine patriots who bravely turn their tails and flee when the going gets tough... or they get bored whichever comes first.

But these are usually not the people who make any notable difference way or the other.



That's exactly what it looks like to me.
When the subject comes up, and people immediately react by saying "Meh, we got bigger fish to fry". they are implying that the very topic is unworthy of notice.

Hey, its like people who say they are for the environment, yet spend most of the day online, and on their phones, live in manicured subdivisions sprayed with chemicals, can't grow, raise and kill their own food, support factory farming and the completely unsanitary and inhumane factory slaughterhouses, and that cannot handle nature. People are spoiled. It won't end until the world ends or the grid collapses or some other huge natural disaster makes using power impossible.

Its not what you say, what you "tweet" (that is such a lame wasteful technology), or what you sign, or what you put on your facebook page. These things are cathartic, designed to make you "feel" like you have some power, say or control over your life and the world.

Its what you spend your money on, what you do, what you consume that gives you power in man's world. When everyone "drops out" of conventional society, stops driving all over, stops buying gas, food, and the like, when majorities of people become self-sufficient, only then do they have the power to have any kind of opinion heard and taken seriously. Otherwise, they are just dependent on the same old same old network of conglomerated corporations, too intertwined and well supported to fail.

Bigger fish to fry might mean making sure we have fish in the ocean, trying to minimize climate change, that we have a world to live in where we can sit and ponder what sports teams are called. All your efforts with petitions and tweets and facebook and making your voice heard only feed these major problems. Electricity generation results in mercury in the oceans.

Just another point of view.

[Ndnsoldierboy]

If you are gonna cry about the native mascot team, go out and buy a team and name it where you are going to offend some other race. I don't personally don't care about this issue.

You wanna cry around?! Go cry about the treaties not honored if you wanna cry about something.

[Toolbox]

Restless you need to re-read my post as you missed the very essence of it, muskrat got it right.

Also you're kidding yourself if you think a handful of people posting on Twitter and Facebook are going to make any difference. People in the US and the rest of the developed high-speed-connected world consume internet content at the speed of light. The only reason why Facebook and Twitter brought on the Arab spring and the big changes in the Middle East is because very few people over there are connected nonetheless consume like we do. Ideas and posts stew quite a bit longer in under developed or less served parts of the world. If you could plug a pair of headphones into your modem to listen to the internet it would be deafening because it would be a loud cacophony of everyone's voice competing for a spot - 99.999% would be unintelligible speech. The remaining spot is what the latest breaking news is and the viral video of the day and probably Justin Bieber tweets.

You would have to stage something big and get a large scale movement going. I will revert back now to talking about "Idle No More". They gained a mass following by staging round dances and socials in flash-mob fashion. How much attention in the media did they get? Diddly Squat is how much they got. They only got attention, at least here, because they barricaded the Canadian Railroad and held some demonstrations by the border.

Let's be clear I'm not bashing them (INM) in fact I loved the Idle No More movement and I did my share of spamming Facebook with their message and getting the word out. I followed them since they first started. All I'm saying is that they are loosing steam. The "Occupy" movement fell victim to the same thing.

At a vendor training event (working on getting a CTS-D certification) last year they asked us "what is the approximate equipment downtime, in seconds, before people's attention span begin to drift elsewhere?" The answer was 8 seconds. They basically simulated a classroom AV control system malfunctioning to see how long it took before students started pulling out their phones and tablets, without them knowing they were part of a very small experiment. The point in me bringing this up is that the impact of your message has to be big and it has to grab and hold people's attention relatively quickly or else they are just going to move on to the next Tweet or Share or YouTube video.

[muskrat_skull]

the How To Get Even... thread has a great idea on how to get your point across to government and the public at large...

(shameless, I know...but its funny and real)

[RestlessN8iv]

Just to provide another point of view, it is very "European/American/white" that people "take action" and "make themselves heard" and its a racist society that demands that. The idea that the "squeaky wheel gets the grease" is simply culturally biased.

People should not have to "act" to not be discriminated against. And there are different types of "actions" including "the action of nonaction" that can be effective.

Erocentricism aside, (though I remind you we're communicating in English right now) I find it hard to believe that suffer in silence is a viable option at this juncture.

Signing petitions and "tweeting" just pollutes alot, wastes electricity and paper and energy that could otherwise be directed in other ways. If you and others care, the best way to deal with it is to make pointed statements in publications that matter and to the management of the team, and to boycott and otherwise not support anyone or anything having to do with the team. Even if that means you never watch another game, buy any sports gear, etc. A single web page containing your purpose, the mfgrs and companies and agencies you wish to boycott and why, that you could direct people to would be sufficient.

The bottom line is the only thing that corporate America understands.

Agreed, but public relations is a huge part of any business. A negative view in the public eye, ort even the threat there of, can give pause to such organizations.

Screaming and tweeting and posturing is patently white American and completely ineffective.

I carefully read the terms and conditions on both sites. Nowhere did it say "white's only".
Even if these were "patently white" I would hardly classify them as ineffective. Companies love twitter. It puts them in direct contact with their customer base. Some of them actually have employees who's particular brand of "market research" includes reading "Tweets" to find out what the consumers have to say about their goods or service.

However, most men will not stop watching their beloved sports shows, no matter what.

Gender stereotyping in a thread about racial stereotyping. Now that is progress! XD

Hey, its like people who say they are for the environment, yet spend most of the day online, and on their phones, live in manicured subdivisions sprayed with chemicals, can't grow, raise and kill their own food, support factory farming and the completely unsanitary and inhumane factory slaughterhouses, and that cannot handle nature. People are spoiled. It won't end until the world ends or the grid collapses or some other huge natural disaster makes using power impossible.

(the above message was posted via smoke signals)

Its not what you say, what you "tweet" (that is such a lame wasteful technology)or what you sign, or what you put on your facebook page. These things are cathartic, designed to make you "feel" like you have some power, say or control over your life and the world.

There is a group in Egypt that might disagree with you.

Its what you spend your money on, what you do, what you consume that gives you power in man's world. When everyone "drops out" of conventional society, stops driving all over, stops buying gas, food, and the like, when majorities of people become self-sufficient, only then do they have the power to have any kind of opinion heard and taken seriously. Otherwise, they are just dependent on the same old same old network of conglomerated corporations, too intertwined and well supported to fail.

Bigger fish to fry might mean making sure we have fish in the ocean, trying to minimize climate change, that we have a world to live in where we can sit and ponder what sports teams are called. All your efforts with petitions and tweets and facebook and making your voice heard only feed these major problems. Electricity generation results in mercury in the oceans.

Just another point of view.

Again did you post this via smoke signals? You do realize you are simultaneously dismissing, and condemning social networking on an Internet forum, right? That's like endorsing vegetarianism with a mouthful of rare steak.

Furthermore you seem convinced that boycotting will make more of a difference (and I agree), but have you ever considered how exactly will the corporations, and other entities know their bottom line is being impacted because of their use of Indian stereotypes? A publication is fine, but publications are written for the majority, by a minority, for a profit. They don't always or even often represent the will of the people anymore than a crooked politician (and I assure you, like a crooked politician, a publication can be bought.)

It isn't so much about whether you are "tweeting" facebooking, utilizing carrier pigeons or urinating a message in the snow. It's about making sure that when the bottom line IS hit, the people at the top know exactly why (as opposed to changing their marketing strategy).

[muskrat_skull]

Erocentricism aside, (though I remind you we're communicating in English right now) I find it hard to believe that suffer in silence is a viable option at this juncture.

No, I'm just advocating action, or not rising to bait sometimes. They love the press they get from these controversies and don't care how it affects people, which is usually negatively. If you partake in it, you feed it. and yes, I'm being obnoxious and opinionated and biased and all.

Agreed, but public relations is a huge part of any business. A negative view in the public eye, ort even the threat there of, can give pause to such organizations.

Well, I did say use pointed and direct communications, but if you have to consume tons of electricity to get everyone in the world to express their view before a company listens, then that is just wrong on so many levels. You should not have to have a tweetfest before a company listens, and willfully at your own expense even, becoming part of a corporate product survey pool, which is all twitter is, is just so messed up. When is the younger generation gonna stand up and say, I don't need this crap. I don't need my vitals on facebook, I don't need to tell the world I took a dump, I don't need to waste energy? And yes, this is ironic, but that does not mean it is untrue. Social networking is wasteful.

I carefully read the terms and conditions on both sites. Nowhere did it say "white's only".
Even if these were "patently white" I would hardly classify them as ineffective. Companies love twitter. It puts them in direct contact with their customer base. Some of them actually have employees who's particular brand of "market research" includes reading "Tweets" to find out what the consumers have to say about their goods or service.

Well, this is what is happening throughout the world. Cultures that aren't vocal and aggressive enough or in the right way, or having enough people, are getting steamrolled. So everyone ends up acting like cows at a trough at feeding time. There are other ways of acting rather than the typical response and ways of thinking we are all herded into, through the media and a majority of people around us, including teachers.

As instructors we were taught to respect the cultural differences that say foreign students may have with regard to class participation, so that they were not overlooked, left out, or penalized for not interacting like what we perceive as "typical white students". I know its not a pretty way of saying it, but non-white American students can't just be included. I could say Western culture, but that totally denies the experience of Native American cultures, Asian Americans, African Americans, and others who may have been brought up to behave differently. Even women are often taught not to speak up as much as males. And many times, this different way of being and behaving is superior to the obnoxious American loud and pushy way of being. Oh, I forgot, even Europeans can be disgusted by us.

Gender stereotyping in a thread about racial stereotyping. Now that is progress! XD

Yeah, you're right, but there's some reason these teams and their players and the whole sports industry is making so much money. I don't think its just women.

(the above message was posted via smoke signals)

Probably would have been a lower carbon footprint if I did.

There is a group in Egypt that might disagree with you.

There is always an exception and all it takes is the right person getting going. But you have to have enough likeminded people to make anything happen, and you won't find that level of likemindedness in the US. We thrive on being different and disagreeing just to disagree.

Again did you post this via smoke signals? You do realize you are simultaneously dismissing, and condemning social networking on an Internet forum, right? That's like endorsing vegetarianism with a mouthful of rare steak.

Yep, it may take the internet to break the internet. Like wikipedia shutting down.

A publication is fine, but publications are written for the majority, by a minority, for a profit. They don't always or even often represent the will of the people anymore than a crooked politician (and I assure you, like a crooked politician, a publication can be bought.)

No, publications are written to spark interest and debate, to present new ideas and information, to get people's attention. Debate sparks people's attention. Even advertisers of the potentially boycotted products and services would advertise in the issue about the boycott. It would increase visibility, make them look impartial, they could feign innocence, and make their brand look more solid, while undermining the boycott by being their. Negative advertising is pretty good pr.

It isn't so much about whether you are "tweeting" facebooking, utilizing carrier pigeons or urinating a message in the snow. It's about making sure that when the bottom line IS hit, the people at the top know exactly why (as opposed to changing their marketing strategy).

The top people don't care about the company itself, they'd probably pee it in the snow for you. They might be upset if their stock drops, but some might take it as a chance to buy in. The people who care about the company are the people trying to rise up, who are worried about losing their jobs. To the extent they have impact, then it matters.

If people are jumping ship, that puts pressure upwards, that matters. If they believe that they will lose their business to someone else, that matters. They have to believe their brand is so damaged, like Shell was with apartheid, or BP with the spill, that they will never fully recover and gain back their marketshare. And it takes something pretty major to get them to blink. This is the problem.

You're right though in many ways, I just don't buy into the Internet mythology part of your argument.

[Zeke]

Bottom line?

Worrying about this is like arranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

Do I empathize with WhoMe's kids? Of course.

But that's not happening in Oklahoma, it's happening in the most racially stratified and competing for attention/funds/recognition municipality in our Nation.

Yes, it's a local issue, one that doesn't occur in Kansas City (where we're more often just dismissed).

The "cop out" is going all Malcom X on an issue that doesn't actually change anything if eradicated.

No Washington Redskins? Oooh, big deal.

Destroy the reservation system due to social growth? Now, you have something.

Team names isn't what holds us back.

[RestlessN8iv]

Bottom line?

Worrying about this is like arranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

Do I empathize with WhoMe's kids? Of course.

But that's not happening in Oklahoma, it's happening in the most racially stratified and competing for attention/funds/recognition municipality in our Nation.

Yes, it's a local issue, one that doesn't occur in Kansas City (where we're more often just dismissed).

The "cop out" is going all Malcom X on an issue that doesn't actually change anything if eradicated.

No Washington Redskins? Oooh, big deal.

Destroy the reservation system due to social growth? Now, you have something.

Team names isn't what holds us back.

There are two 'L's in "Malcolm", Zeke. That's twice now.