Into the West

[Dawgwhisperer]

The AV is "Ninja Hamster".....I keep lookin' for those that fit my personality or make me laugh for one perverse reason or another. You're the therapist.....what does it all mean? (Maybe I don't want to know)

[Plenty Fox]

We've been talkin' about this whole thing so much, I'm going to miss it when the series is over this week. Hopefully, it will continue for little while. Then I'll start checkin' out some of the other "issue" threads.

I know what you mean; I've been planning my whole life around these epidsodes!

Hey Dawg; is that a guinea pig dancing? Cute!

[Dawgwhisperer]

We've been talkin' about this whole thing so much, I'm going to miss it when the series is over this week. Hopefully, it will continue for little while. Then I'll start checkin' out some of the other "issue" threads.

[Plenty Fox]

Sometimes I think people get up in arms over things that they don't really know about because they mistakenly believe that it is the popular opinion. They lose credibility, and prove their narrow mindedness, and in the long run, cause more dissension and confusion than necessary. Sorry for sounding hard, but we can help so much more if we form our OWN informed, well thought out views and opinions.

Part of the child development, personal development process is to feel comfortable and secure enough with 'doing our own homework' and forming our own opinions. Some of us will always go through life 'parroting' what they've heard at home without going through the process. I'm not saying that once having gone through the process one won't emerge from that exploration holding the same or similar opinion as the parents or other family; but at least the stage of growth has taken place, as it should. I think that, and the normal human need to feel a part of something, causes folks to 'detour' and instead of going through the process they are quick to side with whatever the 'popular' opinion is on any given issue. that's part of the problem with our political system, too. Voters see a 'party' label on a candidate and there goes that chad!!

[Plenty Fox]

Thanks, Plenty.....I found the thread. FYI.......The Dawg is a woman....haha I really like some of the stuff you've put on this thread. Very informative and some I'm gonna copy and keep. Feel free to share things with me in general like ya have. I love to learn......

Sorry. That's the problem with this internet stuff!

[OlowanWi]

Thank You!

I've noticed on both of the threads related to Into The West a certain number of folks are volunteering their comments, primarily criticism, and they haven't even been watching the series. Does that make sense? Nada. If you haven't watched it, you don't have anything to say. We can all sit here and moan about how Natives have been treated historically--that's nothing new and, frankly, that's another thread... The two threads about Into The West are about that movie's depiction specifically. Seeing the previews only, in no way qualifies someone to critique the whole series... but perhaps I should be posting this on the thread "What gets on your nerves" elsewhere in this forum. However, it is frustrating to try and have an informed and intelligent conversation about something and then have someone chime in that hasn't even watched the show. Just my two cents.......Next week is the final episode...fasten your seatbelt, we're in for a bumpy ride...

You are so right about that. I have had people tell me that ITW is horrible, and they will never watch it, because of the disrespectful way they show the sundance. I say, whats to be ashamed of? The series isnt showing any actual ceremony that shouldnt be filmed, just an artistic representation, which I felt held the spirit of the ceremony without going to far. It wasnt accurate, no, but did we really want it to be? Nope!
Sometimes I think people get up in arms over things that they don't really know about because they mistakenly believe that it is the popular opinion. They lose credibility, and prove their narrow mindedness, and in the long run, cause more dissension and confusion than necessary.
Sorry for sounding hard, but we can help so much more if we form our OWN informed, well thought out views and opinions.

[Dawgwhisperer]

Thanks, Plenty.....I found the thread. FYI.......The Dawg is a woman....haha I really like some of the stuff you've put on this thread. Very informative and some I'm gonna copy and keep. Feel free to share things with me in general like ya have. I love to learn......

[Plenty Fox]

Thank you, kind sir ! I believe the thread is under Native Issues and starts out with 'NEW MOVIE'...

I should add, the other thread is a great one started by WhoMe and also discusses his film project--I hope we all get a chance to see that!!! Should be great!!!

[Dawgwhisperer]

Once again, Plenty you've poetically expressed what some need to hear. Where's the other thread relating to ITW? I'd be interested to see that one too.

[Plenty Fox]

Critiquing the Series When You Haven't Watched It

I've noticed on both of the threads related to Into The West a certain number of folks are volunteering their comments, primarily criticism, and they haven't even been watching the series. Does that make sense? Nada. If you haven't watched it, you don't have anything to say. We can all sit here and moan about how Natives have been treated historically--that's nothing new and, frankly, that's another thread... The two threads about Into The West are about that movie's depiction specifically. Seeing the previews only, in no way qualifies someone to critique the whole series... but perhaps I should be posting this on the thread "What gets on your nerves" elsewhere in this forum. However, it is frustrating to try and have an informed and intelligent conversation about something and then have someone chime in that hasn't even watched the show. Just my two cents.......Next week is the final episode...fasten your seatbelt, we're in for a bumpy ride...

[White Powwow Dancer]

Couldn't stop the tears when they cut the kids hair.So sad.

I seen the scene too I almost cried too. When Voice That Carry ran away from the hair cutting station. He said a prayer to the Wakan Tanka please have compassion on me. I cried during that scene too.

[Dawgwhisperer]

I think that people are expecting way to much from Spielberg, and laying alot of blame on HIM for actually making pointed remarks on the attitudes that were around back in those days. You don't actually want him to rewrite history just to appease the indians, now do you? We want it told right, and if liberties are taken to convey the message of how horrible the attitudes towards natives were, then I say take them.
I WANT people to see how rampant the use of the term Squaw was. It has provided me plenty of opportunities to correct that bit of information to non-natives who I speak with about the series.
I really don't think that we want to nice it all up, just so Natives can say, FINALLY, a movie that tells it right! What do you mean?? We were treated horribly, and white men behaved barbaric and idiotic. TELL IT LIKE IT WAS!! Even if it ruffles your feathers. Shove the ignorance and hate and utter lack of remorse and sanity into the faces of white America. Show them, HERE, here is what your great ancestors did to us!! Here is the shame that you have all been kept in the dark about!! And look at the dignity and honor that OUR ancestors kept during the whole thing.
This series is hard to watch, as the episodes move along. Episode 5 was hardest to watch. But I'm glad for it. It has it's inaccuracies and flaws, but it tells a story that needs to be told. If you can't stand how it is told, go read an old history book to help gloss it over for you. I prefer to embrace the slow starts. And I also applaud Spielberg for taking a risk to help a fellow Lakota tell his story.
All the native actors featured in this series are sensitive to their culture and to accurate portrayals of natives. Don't you think we would have been hearing from them if it were such a horribe rendition of the truth?

Thanx for posting. I think if you read back through the posts you'll see that there is agreement that it should be as vivid and harsh as possible. I said myself in a previous post that Spielberg did a great job with Saving Private Ryan depicting the violence at Normandy Beach and Mel Gibson did a great job depicting the entire events of The Christ leading up to his crucifixion. I think the harder it is to watch, the better......NOW we have to make sure that we integrate truth and positive motivation in our daily lives to insure that "we" are not forgotten nor portrayed any longer as we have been throughout history. Plenty Fox is right, we can STILL win. But alot of it depends on OUR solidarity and not dissension amongst us....regardless of tribe, blood %, etc. I'm actually starting to educate my white nieces, 9 & 11 years old with positive knowledge. They will tell their extended family and friends and THAT is how we can make an impact.....through ALL children, white or ndn.

[White Powwow Dancer]

I think that people are expecting way to much from Spielberg, and laying alot of blame on HIM for actually making pointed remarks on the attitudes that were around back in those days. You don't actually want him to rewrite history just to appease the indians, now do you? We want it told right, and if liberties are taken to convey the message of how horrible the attitudes towards natives were, then I say take them.
I WANT people to see how rampant the use of the term Squaw was. It has provided me plenty of opportunities to correct that bit of information to non-natives who I speak with about the series.
I really don't think that we want to nice it all up, just so Natives can say, FINALLY, a movie that tells it right! What do you mean?? We were treated horribly, and white men behaved barbaric and idiotic. TELL IT LIKE IT WAS!! Even if it ruffles your feathers. Shove the ignorance and hate and utter lack of remorse and sanity into the faces of white America. Show them, HERE, here is what your great ancestors did to us!! Here is the shame that you have all been kept in the dark about!! And look at the dignity and honor that OUR ancestors kept during the whole thing.
This series is hard to watch, as the episodes move along. Episode 5 was hardest to watch. But I'm glad for it. It has it's inaccuracies and flaws, but it tells a story that needs to be told. If you can't stand how it is told, go read an old history book to help gloss it over for you. I prefer to embrace the slow starts. And I also applaud Spielberg for taking a risk to help a fellow Lakota tell his story.
All the native actors featured in this series are sensitive to their culture and to accurate portrayals of natives. Don't you think we would have been hearing from them if it were such a horribe rendition of the truth?

You're right about that OlowanWi.

[Plenty Fox]

understanding history, keeping it in context...

It is the character of Robert Wheeler, who with his wife Clara, joins Pratt at the Carlisle Indian School. He tells George Voices That Carry that he should strive to learn so he could put down the history of his People in writing, not to please Pratt but for his [Voices That Carry] children and their children because what White society calls 'history' is "written by those who win the battles". He tried to convey that the written word could help preserve Lakota culture for the future because he feared there would be no Lakota left to deliver the traditional oral history.

Keeping in mind the above, and remembering that there were no national daily newspapers, radio and tv, it is easy to see why a White populace of that time would believe the 'spin' put on Native America. Even for those living in places like Denver, the two cultures were so removed from each other that when zealots like Chivington report on the 'savage' nature of the Native people and strategically leave out the important parts about the army's campaign of annihilation, who do you think White America of 18?? is going to believe? And, because the historians of the time were at a similar disadvantage vis-a-vis reference resources, mistruths and garbage were perpetuated to the point that it made damage control by Native peoples very difficult. It is painful to watch scenes like those with Black Kettle where confusion is evident when he is attacked after trying to communicate that he wants peace. Just as we do now, there were 'hawks' and 'doves' in the leadership on both sides. Chiefs espousing cooperation and/or non-violent solutions were caught in a no-win situation. They never had a chance, we never had a chance; because public opinion at the time was influenced by a few very vocal White extremists. There is definitely a great value in films such as this; and even some of the less accurate ones so long as they portray our people as 'human'. We now have the capability of using media to our advantage--I say use it! Even if that means making people squirm and complain--and there will be people on both sides who do so--there is the mentality among some of our people that the past is entirely the past so why bring it up? Why? Because history IS 'written by those who win the battles' and I believe we can still win this one. Not be getting into heated debates full of accusation and recrimination; but by harnassing media and putting the truth out there! Truth never needs defending, but it does need put out there. Remember that old adage, 'one picture is worth a thousand words'? Spielberg et al gave us quite a 'picture book'.

[urbandn]

There are alot of scenes in the last two episodes that were very emotional for anyone who has any kind of clue about the truth of what happened in the taking of this land. Unfortunately, thre will always be those who do not understand, who just do not and will not get it. I watched part of last night's episode with a white friend. Despite explaining to them that many massacres had already taken place, they are insistent that what happened to Custer is what caused us to 'sign our death warrant'. They have had mistruths pounded into their head from birth, and cannot believe that the schools, government etc are still lying to them today.
What can you do? Just your best to make them see the truths that have never been exposed, support Native film directors, actors and anyone seeking to tell the truth.