Saying Hello

[OLChemist]

First Kevin, please do not take my comments as criticism. Then are intended to present my views and not to condemn yours. :)

What happens next? I hadn’t realised that Reservations still exist until recently; obviously they must be much better than they were 120ish years ago. From what I’ve read so far poverty and bigotry is still a major problem and inter-tribal conflict is getting worse, I hope this is an over-exaggeration.

I'm glad you asked what's happened next. Dee Brown's book is a survey of the major atrocities of the end at "the Indian Wars." It is a vast over-simplication. It is widely used in schools in the US. In my experience, it tends to leave its readers with the idea we all got killed and are gone now.

Whether reservations are better or worse is a matter of debate and depends on which reservation. And on who you talk to. But reservations aren't the whole picture. According to the last US census, only 22% of Native people live on reservations or Alaska Native Villages.

While poverty is a significant factor in the lives of too many Native people in the US, particularly on some reservations, be cautious about viewing Native people's lives solely through that lens. Just under 30% of Native people in the US live in poverty, about twice the rate of the general population.

I'm not sure what you mean by inter-tribal conflicts. Did you perhaps mean intratribal conflict? People often seem to have this idea that in the pre-contact world we lived in blissful harmony, sitting next to our tipis petting our wolves, never having a moment conflict with our next door neighbor, LOL. Human nature then is human nature now. My people certainly found things to argue over and reasons to start dissenting/competing political groups before contact. I strongly suspect tribal politics has always been a fractious affair, but that consensus was easier to arrive at when the goals were more clearly defined and agreed upon.

[Mogs]

OLChemist

“Inter-tribal / Intratribal conflict” I can’t now recall where I read that, it was linked to gang violence, I’m glad I got that wrong. As such I’m not sure I wholly understood what it meant either. Hopefully Inter-tribal rivalry is equivalent to our Welsh/English enmity, which is most notable at Rugby Football Games (During the match we hate them. After we’re all friends again, laughing and joking with each other in the pub).

I haven’t got to the end of BMHAWK yet, I skipped to the last chapter. It infuriates me and I am so distant from the events in miles as well as time. I find it astonishing that this is used as a text in schools. Does this not stir up racial tensions? Only today I discovered that Dee Brown was not Native American and he's no longer with us.

I may be sailing too close to the wind on this issue, if I am tell me?

I guess I'm an incurable optimist, looking for the happy ending, Dum on my part that could be!

I really don't understand the mindset/politics of the day. I can't get past how the North could be in conflict with the South over slavery, whilst at the same time doing the horrors outlined in the book.


Kevin

[OLChemist]

“Inter-tribal / Intratribal conflict” I can’t now recall where I read that, it was linked to gang violence…

Gangs in Indian Cuuntry are a hot topic right now. The dominant culture seems to only discuss Native peoples, communities and cultures in the context of dysfunction -- be it alcohol, drugs, FAS/FAE, gangs, child abuse, rape, etc… I do not deny these are problems, often significant. However, they are not the sum total of our communities.

I find it astonishing that this is used as a text in schools. Does this not stir up racial tensions?

The teaching of Native history in classrooms in the US has long been problematic. During my school years (4 decades ago) we appeared next to Miles Standish eating dinner and then disappeared until it was time to give Custer his arrow shirt. (In the US there is a brand of men's shirts called Arrow Shirts, hence the really old and bad pun.) In broader surveys, we killed off God-fearing Purtians during King Phillips War, went of the Trail of Tears, killed settlers on the Oregon Trail, and scared little Laura Ingalls.

Now things are better. There is a somewhat more balanced presentations. But, just this morning I was listening to a podcast of the radio show about the Dakota War. Near the end they talked with a 3rd grade teacher who was preparing her class to attend a Native event. She told the interviewer that she talked about the war in the context of conflict resolution. She basically said the Dakota didn't know how to resolve disputes any other way than to fight, unlike her (probably non-Indian) students who "use our words". This forced the settlers to fight back. Shall we just say that was a gross oversimplification and mischaracterization of the events of the Dakota War. And it did leave me wondering how her students were going to feel surrounded by Dakota people at the powwow they were preparing to attend.

Little War On the Prairie

As for racial tensions… Native people are 1.2% of the US population. Most people have never even talked to a Native person. So, except in certain areas where larger groups of Native people live along side non-Indians, there isn't enough mass for any significant tension.

[subeeds]

Welcome to the forums, Kevin. It's nice to run across someone who is interested without being condescending. Bury My Heart...the book is a whole lot different than the movie. I read the book at a young age, and was quite surprised when I saw the movie. Like many books and movies, they seem to me to be miles apart.

At the top of the page, you will see a heading for Pow-Wow videos. Check those out when you have time. I am Welsh on my maternal side. I have a cousin who traced the family back to the early 1500s. She had to stop there because the church who held the previous records had burned down.

As for the "happy ending" you are looking for, I don't know. There are many things that have improved-such as educational and job opportunities, but NDN children are still being taken from their families,(for small reasons-and reasons that would not get a white child removed from the home) and placed in foster care with white families. The state gets more money that way. That's gone on for decades and decades. It happened to my Grandfather-and thousands of other NDN children around the turn of the century, and continues still.

[Mogs]

… the book is a whole lot different than the movie… .

I’ve not come across a book from which a film is made that has not been infinitely better than it’s portrayed.

At the top of the page, you will see a heading for Pow-Wow videos. Check those out when you have time.

We are blocked from downloading video at work, but I shall persuade one of my daughters to allow me access to a laptop, for some reason they are reluctant, I can’t imagine why


I am Welsh on my maternal side. I have a cousin who traced the family back to the early 1500s.

Wow, that’s about 20 generations. In which case statistically it’s very likely we are related – Hello Cousin . Do you know where in Wales?

… NDN children are still being taken from their families, …and placed in foster care with white families… It happened to my Grandfather-and thousands of other NDN children around the turn of the century, and continues still.

That’s another shocker, we are sold the line that the US is the most compassionate and caring society in the world.

We are given to believe that Native American’s back then had no concept of individual land ownership, is this true or is it another load of simplistic rubbish? Group ownership must have existed, for there are many cases of Native American leaders asking/demanding settlers leave “Our Lands”.

Which brings me onto my next question.

What do you think makes a reservation special, is it just that there is a degree of autonomy from the state and federal Government?

We in Wales are currently undergoing change in our government structures, gradually pulling away from the government in London. We have control over Education, Health and Environmental Matters. We are gradually getting some powers over taxation. I suspect there are some parallels; I am interested to hear you views on this?

The Scots are currently taking greater steps, actively seeking independence from the UK government. We’re in for an interesting time, I can’t imagine having to change currency when visiting Scotland but that’s where it’s heading.

The acromyn “NDN”. The use of the term Indian in the UK is considered to fall foul of the Politically Correct brigade. I have read that it is considered offensive, conversely I have also read “the white man gave us the name Indians and now they want to take that away too”.

I’m not one that is usually concerned over PC matters, I think it often gets in the way. Provided that what is said/written is not done deliberately to be offensive. You guys use the term a lot, where would I stand on this? Typing Native American often ties up my fingers but using NA doesn’t work either. We do use the word “Indian” in the UK but in all cases it refers to persons coming from India, when it’s okay.

K

[OLChemist]

We are given to believe that Native American’s back then had no concept of individual land ownership, is this true or is it another load of simplistic rubbish? Group ownership must have existed, for there are many cases of Native American leaders asking/demanding settlers leave “Our Lands”.

Malarkey.

I usually hear that arguement in the context of some non-Indian discussing treaties. Usually they start their spiel with "the Indians didn't believe you could own the land so they didn't understand what they were signing…" The discourse then proceeds as through we have been assigned an a priori treaty violation. So when the colonizers violate the treaty, their guilt is less because we broke it first -- albeit out of ignorance.

Or you'll hear that from Native purveyors of romantic claptrap. Often they are pushing a political agenda to tenured fans of vaguely Marxist post-colonial theory or to aging hippies longing for the commune. A lot of the early 70's AIM leadership presented this old chestnut, because they seemed to think it gave us some kind of moral superiority over the dominant culture.

For me, it never held water. If we didn't understand land ownership, why did we fight Crows, Pawnees, Omahas, or Long Knives who came on to it? We certainly had a highly developed system of ownership of intellectual property. We many ot have had patents or trademarks, but we knew exactly who had the rights to certain information or artistic and literary expression. We knew what belonged to our people, thank you very much.

]What do you think makes a reservation special, is it just that there is a degree of autonomy from the state and federal Government?

Oh, the legal basis of this unique relationship is complicated. It differs significantly between the US and Canada, and the lower 48 and Alaska. In the US version, I doubt you want to hear about various treaties, legal rulings, PL 280, termination, NARFA or the rest.

I am guessing you want to know why we cling to what often seems to outsiders, and even some of our own people, to be cages full of poverty and crime. I can't tell you what every Indian thinks, I can only tell you what my mother and grandfather's reservation means to me as a urban born, mixed-blood woman.

It is first and foremost the land where I know the stories. In that place, I know why we don't point at a rainbow or why we do say particular phrase when killing a spider. I know that in this place certain people pray to certain powers, and in that place so-and-so's grandfather hid after running away from school. It is part of a scared geography.

It is a safe haven for religion and language. It is place where you count kinship in complex, deep and abiding ways.

It is the land my ancestor's fought to keep. It holds their bones. Their blood enriches its dirt. They forced the US government to the negotiating table. That much of it was taken in a maneuver even the US courts have acknowledged was illegal, does not make the remainder any less valuable.

I am the third generation to live elsewhere. But, like my grandfather and mother, when I say back home I don't mean DFW, Pittsburgh or Chadron.

The acromyn “NDN”. You guys use the term a lot, where would I stand on this? Typing Native American often ties up my fingers but using NA doesn’t work either. We do use the word “Indian” in the UK but in all cases it refers to persons coming from India, when it’s okay.

Generally, I prefer my name, LOL.

When I was doing my post-doc a colleague once got confused about that answer. She said: "American Indian, Native American, First Nations, Aboriginal, Indigenous-American, Amerind, Indian person." I thought I might have to give her oxygen before she got to the end of the sentence.

All of these are umbrella terms for many different tribes. Personally, I don't get too worked up over your choice of nomenclature, as long as it is remember we are individuals.

[OLChemist]

Wow, the thread killer strikes again. I do have a gift for scaring them away, LOL.

[wardancer]

dang ndns !

[Mogs]

Wow, the thread killer strikes again. I do have a gift for scaring them away, LOL.

I'm not scared yet!

[Mogs]

OLChemist.

You are certainly exercising my googling skills. I’ve had to look up “Malarkey”, “ AIM”, “Lower 48”, “DFW”. There are a couple that I can’t work out?

“Chadron” - College ?
“Long Knives” - loads of stuff about Hitler which can’t be it?

I can now see why Reservations are special. Thank you.

-----------------

Recently on Fox News there are reports of new “Land Grabs”, mostly they appear to be in Utah. This appears to be a huge dose of irony if it’s a case of taking land off those who ancestors grabbed the land in the first place, what are your thoughts?


I’ve been watching a lot of dance videos, along with the explanations , I’m beginning to see the stories. There are also links to other dances such as the Buffalo Dance, Ghost Dance, Sun Dance etc. These are not mentioned here on powwow.com . Have these been superseded or evolved into the current dances, if so can you tell me which went the which?

On the outfits, I understand that these develop and change over time and are different according to the dancers nation and are very personalised. Is there a basic starting point for individuals? Are outfits passed down through families. Are you expected to make your own, what happens if you have no talent with a needle and thread?

On Face Paint – clearly there is great symbolism, has the symbolism been carried on, what does it say. eg. The fellow on the Morongo banner (Thunder & Lightning Pow Wow) with the white across his eyes and what appears to be a yellow beak or claw. What does this mean?

K

[gilisi]

Long Knives were white guys from colonial times

Chadron is in Nebraska

[Vigalante]

still going to pow-wows regardless what others think ofme you may hate me I dont care

still going to go to Native Pow-wows and I really don't care if others hate me like me or love me its your choice I am not going to twist your arm to make friends or make war if you want lol. Its up to you guys and girls not me if you want to be friends or not or at least civil to one another I was going to leave this site and take my name off here but why should I run away when others have just as much attitude if not more than me there are a lot of that going around on here smart mouths so on and I don't like it one bit. Lose the attitude I will try my best to lose mine you reap what you sow you give attitude to me you'll get it right back in your face and space don't like it don't come around me then simple as that. Like War Dancer saying when he grows up to be Native he will get him a headband what's up with that comment smart butt if you ask me lol. To Me that's being smart or smarting off I don't like smart mouths and people with the Big Chief attitude I get enough of that in my home don't need that here. The Big man Attitude saying I am Indian and you are not what's up with that too cant we all be civil to one another and quit going on the warpath every time I say anything out of my mouth oh I get the looks and the eye rolling and the lmaos and Oh Lord here we go again attitude like I said drop the attitude and I will try my hardest to drop mine I don't have issues either just speaking my mind don't like it don't care. Already got one infraction you want to bring it bring it then keep them coming I have lots to say on my mind and my feelings. And I have said my peace whether you agree or not or get offended. And btw I am not the only chief on here there are too many chiefs running the show here and I don't like that either keep your mouth shut nothing but evil to say about someone or be nice choices choices make up your minds what it will be and let me know.

[Mogs]

still going to go to Native Pow-wows and I really don't care if others hate me like me or love me its your choice I am not going to twist your arm to make friends or make war if you want lol. Its up to you guys and girls not me if you want to be friends or not or at least civil to one another I was going to leave this site and take my name off here but why should I run away when others have just as much attitude if not more than me there are a lot of that going around on here smart mouths so on and I don't like it one bit. Lose the attitude I will try my best to lose mine you reap what you sow you give attitude to me you'll get it right back in your face and space don't like it don't come around me then simple as that. Like War Dancer saying when he grows up to be Native he will get him a headband what's up with that comment smart butt if you ask me lol. To Me that's being smart or smarting off I don't like smart mouths and people with the Big Chief attitude I get enough of that in my home don't need that here. The Big man Attitude saying I am Indian and you are not what's up with that too cant we all be civil to one another and quit going on the warpath every time I say anything out of my mouth oh I get the looks and the eye rolling and the lmaos and Oh Lord here we go again attitude like I said drop the attitude and I will try my hardest to drop mine I don't have issues either just speaking my mind don't like it don't care. Already got one infraction you want to bring it bring it then keep them coming I have lots to say on my mind and my feelings. And I have said my peace whether you agree or not or get offended. And btw I am not the only chief on here there are too many chiefs running the show here and I don't like that either keep your mouth shut nothing but evil to say about someone or be nice choices choices make up your minds what it will be and let me know.

I don't understand this at all. Are you saying my attitude stinks?

[gilisi]

I don't understand this at all. Are you saying my attitude stinks?

Nah... she's talking about the rest of us. Ignore her, she's just post crashing.

[OLChemist]

Sorry, I shall endeavor to remember that as an American I don't really speak English :)

There are also links to other dances such as the Buffalo Dance, Ghost Dance, Sun Dance etc. These are not mentioned here on powwow.com . Have these been superseded or evolved into the current dances, if so can you tell me which went the which?

Those are religious dances, ceremonies. Powwow dancing is social dancing. For the most part our pre-contact religions are ongoing affairs. So, many of the practices you read about in history books are still occuring.

Regarding traditional Native religions... There are very significant differences in ethos between Native and Judeo-Christian religions. In many of our traditions, the a sacred is treated with profound respect, and this respect manifests itself as restrictions on the sharing of certain teachings beyond those people who need to know. This is not done out of spite or racism. It is just a proper respect for the balance of the universe. For example, as a woman, there a things men do in ceremony that aren't any of my business. There are physical and metaphysical consequences to sharing teachings. For this reason many Native people will not talk about ceremonies or religion, except in the most general terms.

Just as a rule of thumb, if a ceremony is on video on the internet be wary. I know I've run across "sun dance" videos on the internet. I don't know any legitimate holy person who would let that ceremony be filmed. The bits I saw, were enough to tell me this "ceremony" was be conducted by people who had appropriated and distorted the practice. Much of what is out there on the internet or in books about Native religions is wrong. It distorts the practice, the rationale behind it and often damages our cultural integrity.

Just for future reference, in our cultures the modes of transmission of knowledge, particularly about the sacred, tend to be very restrictive. There is a time and place and a proper approach to ask about these things. The internet is almost never that place.

Further, casual questions about religion are often considered inappropriate. It is not necessarily because you're non-Indian, but may be that it just isn't acceptable to discuss the matter with non-tribal members, or men or for the person you asked to answer. So, inquiries of this nature may be greeted with silence, like a child receives when asking a biological question in mixed company. Or you may be teased or mocked. Many of our cultures use ridicule to remind folks of boundaries. If this happens, just drop the matter. Native teasing for corrective purposes can be harsh. But, if you accept the correction, don't argue and let the matter go, it will stop.

In a forum like this you need to remember you're not the first person to ask any question, LOL. How many times a week do you have to explain your religion or manners or customs to a stranger? I will do it 2 or 3 times a week. My experience is not that unusual for a Native person. Being an unpaid cultural educator is part of the package, as it were. Not all of us like the role or do it well. And understand, we've all had positive and negative experiences with people's responses to our answers. So, folks may be less than diplomatic. So, be patient with all the different types of responses you may get.