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  • Marines charged with war crimes

    Recently the news has been covering the fighting in Fallujah and if you haven't heard a Marine was taken off the battlefield for shooting a civilian, supposedly was already dead. News reporters shot it and now there's the contraversy about rules of engagement. I wanted to bring light to this issue, because I feel like the the Marines don't get the credit they deserve. I know there is a petition online for this Marine on MarineCorps.com to have the President help clear his name. I'm sure society used this issue to hate the war even more, well I think this war has gone on too far too, but each one of us out there don't have a choice. We learn to love what we do even if it means to leave for months at a time. We don't do it for the money or the glory, we do it because it's our duty... for our families. I just wanted to know what you all think of this issue??? The more the war continues, more issues will surface.
    Fall down 7 times, get up 8. MY FAMOUS WORDS.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Echo4Tango
    Recently the news has been covering the fighting in Fallujah and if you haven't heard a Marine was taken off the battlefield for shooting a civilian, supposedly was already dead. News reporters shot it and now there's the contraversy about rules of engagement. I wanted to bring light to this issue, because I feel like the the Marines don't get the credit they deserve. I know there is a petition online for this Marine on MarineCorps.com to have the President help clear his name. I'm sure society used this issue to hate the war even more, well I think this war has gone on too far too, but each one of us out there don't have a choice. We learn to love what we do even if it means to leave for months at a time. We don't do it for the money or the glory, we do it because it's our duty... for our families. I just wanted to know what you all think of this issue??? The more the war continues, more issues will surface.
    Echo, i totally respect what you do and your efforts for peace and that youre only doing what youre being told, taking orders. I feel the warhas gone too far and from what i see here (Canada) nothing is truly being accomplished, more people are dying and I do not understand for what cause. It is wonderful that Sadam has been captured and that Democracy is trying to be introduced to Iraq, but i thought the war was On terroism and trying to get Osama, where did that effort go? How many more families ahve to lose thier loved ones before the government says enough, thats my concern is the troops fighting for a cause that may never be won. These people have exisited in that country for alot longer than North America has exisited and they have always done things in the way that say we here in our free land dont agree with, but is it trully our place to tell them No it is wrong?
    No i dont agree with women and children being killed at the hands of a dictator but that dictator has been caught, Do we truly think these people do not have the intelligence enough to run thier own country? I mean true Muslims and in the end isnt this all feeding into what Osama wants, to get the people of that country even more angry and become Anti American and therefore have it trickle into the Unitd States and Canada? I an very torn on this issue i have been from the beggining. Like I said i totally support the troops and your efforts to bring peace to the world but at what expense are you going to have to do when youre in a country that just doesnt seem to want to do it our way? I pray everyday that Bush will call the troops home and that they can be with thier families especailly now that it is christmas time.

    trrops follow orders and only do what they are commanded, so are there commanders and higher ups thatare being punishd and being taken off the line for calling such orders? Why is it the soldiers and not the other people that are calling the shots that have to responsibility and be accountable?

    i hope I havent offended any of our troops and i wish them the best, its just that it all really saddens me to see people everyday dying and no one in the US Gov seem to care unless it benefits thier own pocket books. a Publicized sorry isnt enough I dont think and it wont bring thier loved ones back.

    Hope you will come home soon and so will your fellow soldiers. Peace be with you and your families

    ~~~ Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up. ~~~


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    • #3
      Echo. I've heard some thought , or thinking that the opposed in this conflict are not under the umbrella of the Geneva convention rules for warfare. I believe that our forces do comply, W/ requirements of Geneva Conventions. I'm not there.!!So I have no clout, on this matter. Nor would if I was there. Just as an individual soldier. Public outcry is immense it seems to me. They have imbeded reporters, and newspaper people with in the troop concentration. Nothing seems to escape if they are looking. It a tough situations for overseers ,of the troops.Tougher for the troops, seems to me.As in all conflicts, one doesn't know the enemy. In the particuliar situation were in the terriosts do their dirty work, and mingle and blend in with the crowd. This is against the Geneva convention, as I understand.. The other side is required to display a identifying distinction from the non combatants. This is a thorny problem, as I understand in the areas we are engageing in. It seems to basicly comes down to a complience problem for the other side. Some troops think, any of the people are fair game. as we can't identify the wrongdoers. So take them all down. That's what I believe is a form of solution, if enough evidence is present. I don't feel that our troops have guidance enough to really deal W/ some of these problems. What experience we do have has been gained in that confict at this time.!! IMO GES

      Comment


      • #4
        I think we the public, as civilians, need to remember several things.

        1) The forces overseas are, for the majority, not a professional, as in career, military. Many are reservists.

        2) We have a young military. Some of us grew up on Viet Nam, some of us on WWII and Korea. The 'reality' of war for those generations is far different than the reality of a generation raised on playstatiion, nintendo and xbox. There is just no comparison. Not that there is any 'real life' experience I can imagine that would prepare anyone for how to conduct themselves in a 'war zone'.

        3) In relation to the above, John Doe joins up out of high school, or maybe a year or two of college or not even a GED. Maybe he grew up on a farm, maybe he went to some safe suburban high school and knew his turf, knew what made people tick, shared their religious philosophy (mostly)--basically had a common ground. Our men and women go over there and are expected to acclimate to a variety of fighting modes--hand to hand or close contact in an urban setting; or long range between villages in a desert. They don't know when they're looking at someone whether they are the enemy or not (common to all wars for the most part but with variance). Groups of Iraqi's thought to be friendlies are turning out to be insurgents. So, you can't trust anybody. You have to trust your fellow soldiers and your commanders. Frankly, society has not raised a generation of team players. We have become 'ME' oriented, control freaks and often find it difficult to acknowledge a higher authority when there is one because we are competitive by nature. So, here the soldier gets dropped. Give him/her a weapon, teach him how to use it and instill in him a survival instinct and 'win one for the gipper (Bush)' mentality. There are no war games, no great war room with a table laid out with a map of a continent and generals moving carriers or tank units around that will 'fit' this conflict.

        I guess what I'm trying to say is, if there is any 'monster' on the loose, it is one of our own making. And, any culpability/responsibility for what is happening now rests on the shoulders of the commanders and leaders of this country. We went in there (Iraq) thinking we were going to share a way of life we've come to value and appreciate--democracy with all its trappings. Put the shoe on the other foot. If it was still the cold war, and the Russians did come ashore (shades of Red Dawn) and forced Communism and Socialism on us, how would we feel?

        It is time for our leaders in Washington to bring our men and women home. The war in Iraq is 'within' not 'without'. We can't force a change of heart and mind on a people. This conflict goes beyond subduing another military or government; it is about a people. And not just the Iraqi people, but the American people. This war has divided this country. It is taking our sons, daughters, husbands, wives, fathers, mothers from us or will return them to us emotionally worse for wear--and for what? This is no win war. God love our troops. God guide our leaders. God save our country.
        Damme ape’semmai, "Andabichidaiboonee’ gimmadu’i.Wihyu memme hainjinee’ nahandu’i. Enne wizha sudei’ tsaangu mabizhiahkande," mai.

        The Creator said, "A foreign race of white people will come, who will become your friends. You should treat them well."

        The Creator sure had a strange sense of humor!

        Comment


        • #5
          You know I read all your opinions, you are all entitled to it. I agree with alot of issues you have brought to the podium. Everyone in the military do have to follow orders and there are times when your common sense isn't taken into consideration. I pray for all the troops stationed all over the world, but this Marine like others are being accused of crimes they committed, thinking it's the right decision. I know one Marine, one of our own, Menominee, he went to Iraq last year, got dishonorable discharged, because he fired after 'cease fire! was called and killed a civilian. He came home, now the shadow follows him, for what? You think you are doing right, but the government fries you. For those who know what it's like in the military, sometimes you can't defend yourself and have to keep your mouth shut. That really makes me mad, when I know I didn't do wrong and I can't explain myself, I walk away with my blood hot and boiling. It's not right when you don't make the final decisions in your life, bad things always happens to good people, I know alot of good people go down in flames, their careers ruined forever. .

          As for the war, it is dragging on. We are getting tired. More of our loved ones are coming home physically and mentally hurt. I'm tired of this war too. Imagine coming home and being told you might leave again in 4 months? I noticed a trend too, alot of our troops don't want to reenlist. The more they push us to the limit, putting up with b/s, the more we want out. I'm sure there is some die hard motivators out there, hoorah, bravo-sulu to you, BUT, personally I'm tired of being seperated from my little girl. I support the hard work the troops do, but our mission seems not worth fighting for. I visited our brother in the naval hospital after he got flown back, SGT T, imagine a hundred staples in your leg holding your muscles together? A purple heart isn't worth that pain and greif. I've done my time, I just want to go home and be a mom who can stay home for at least a week. I'll always remain faithful to my fellow brother and sisters out there for accomplishing each mission, but the war on terrorism just turned into politics, America flexing it's muscles. I don't completely agree with Mr. President Bush's views, but I'll walk the plank for my country....for my family......for my honor. Thanks for your response everyone, logging on this website always keeps me smiling and keeping close to friends on powwows.com. Let's keep this thread rolling, great responses.

          **jdazmum**
          PowWows.com Addicts
          Last edited by **jdazmum**; 11-25-2004, 05:39 PM.
          Fall down 7 times, get up 8. MY FAMOUS WORDS.

          Comment


          • #6
            Bless you, Echo, and come home safe and whole.

            Angie
            Damme ape’semmai, "Andabichidaiboonee’ gimmadu’i.Wihyu memme hainjinee’ nahandu’i. Enne wizha sudei’ tsaangu mabizhiahkande," mai.

            The Creator said, "A foreign race of white people will come, who will become your friends. You should treat them well."

            The Creator sure had a strange sense of humor!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Echo4Tango
              You know I read all your opinions, you are all entitled to it. I agree with alot of issues you have brought to the podium. Everyone in the military do have to follow orders and there are times when your common sense isn't taken into consideration. I pray for all the troops stationed all over the world, but this Marine like others are being accused of crimes they committed, thinking it's the right decision. I know one Marine, one of our own, Menominee, he went to Iraq last year, got dishonorable discharged, because he fired after 'cease fire! was called and killed a civilian. He came home, now the shadow follows him, for what? You think you are doing right, but the government fries you. For those who know what it's like in the military, sometimes you can't defend yourself and have to keep your mouth shut. That really makes me mad, when I know I didn't do wrong and I can't explain myself, I walk away with my blood hot and boiling. It's not right when you don't make the final decisions in your life, bad things always happens to good people, I know alot of good people go down in flames, their careers ruined forever. .

              As for the war, it is dragging on. We are getting tired. More of our loved ones are coming home physically and mentally hurt. I'm tired of this war too. Imagine coming home and being told you might leave again in 4 months? I noticed a trend too, alot of our troops don't want to reenlist. The more they push us to the limit, putting up with b/s, the more we want out. I'm sure there is some die hard motivators out there, hoorah, bravo-sulu to you, BUT, personally I'm tired of being seperated from my little girl. I support the hard work the troops do, but our mission seems not worth fighting for. I visited our brother in the naval hospital after he got flown back, SGT T, imagine a hundred staples in your leg holding your muscles together? A purple heart isn't worth that pain and greif. I've done my time, I just want to go home and be a mom who can stay home for at least a week. I'll always remain faithful to my fellow brother and sisters out there for accomplishing each mission, but the war on terrorism just turned into politics, America flexing it's muscles. I don't completely agree with Mr. President Bush's views, but I'll walk the plank for my country....for my family......for my honor. Thanks for your response everyone, logging on this website always keeps me smiling and keeping close to friends on powwows.com. Let's keep this thread rolling, great responses.

              HUGS girl... You have done your best and deserve to be reunited with your loved ones I heard everything you have said. All I can say is that I am very proud of you, for your sacrifice and I thankyou for your dedication to your country and freedom. If only your leaders could have the same heart and see what it is doing to the good people that are actually THERE fighting not sitting behind a desk making decisions.

              ~~~ Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up. ~~~


              Comment


              • #8
                Thank you and usually the people making the decisions, who seem to be he worse are straight out of officer's school. They are the worst. I think sometimes, I would write a book on all the crazy things we do and have to deal with. People come up with books about the strategies of war or biographies of the war, but me, I'll be the one writing a book about the bloopers. LOL!! I got to find out the lastest news about that Marine. Most recent news was the Marines found enough weapons cache to take over Iraq if they could. Imagine that? Also a chemical type lab with instructions to make homemade bombs, bombs made with Anthrax (thank god for my annual booster shot, even though I hate it), and instructions to make road side bombs. I think these "insurgents" (political for thugs) LOL! anyway, I think they will eventually catch on to our fighting tactics and however long we are there, they will always find a way to kill and fight back. These militants are scary. I can't even imagine what it would be like to get kidnapped by them. I get spooked even in Bahrain, taking a cab into town. Yesterday while the rest of the world enjoyed their dinners, two more Marines got killed entering a mosque. Let's take a moment to pay our respects to them.
                Fall down 7 times, get up 8. MY FAMOUS WORDS.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Echo4Tango
                  Thank you and usually the people making the decisions, who seem to be he worse are straight out of officer's school. They are the worst. I think sometimes, I would write a book on all the crazy things we do and have to deal with. People come up with books about the strategies of war or biographies of the war, but me, I'll be the one writing a book about the bloopers. LOL!! I got to find out the lastest news about that Marine. Most recent news was the Marines found enough weapons cache to take over Iraq if they could. Imagine that? Also a chemical type lab with instructions to make homemade bombs, bombs made with Anthrax (thank god for my annual booster shot, even though I hate it), and instructions to make road side bombs. I think these "insurgents" (political for thugs) LOL! anyway, I think they will eventually catch on to our fighting tactics and however long we are there, they will always find a way to kill and fight back. These militants are scary. I can't even imagine what it would be like to get kidnapped by them. I get spooked even in Bahrain, taking a cab into town. Yesterday while the rest of the world enjoyed their dinners, two more Marines got killed entering a mosque. Let's take a moment to pay our respects to them.
                  Bahrain, eh? I was there 'once'. Scary place. I was on a British Airways flight to Australia. Landed in dead of night--you could see the oil fires burning in the desert. Took us an hour to deplane--soldiers in burnoose with what looked like AK47s at the door. We sat around for a couple of hours and then took another hour to reboard. Man, they dumped out everything from my purse. Even opened my tampax container. How embarassing. I was real glad to get out of there...
                  Damme ape’semmai, "Andabichidaiboonee’ gimmadu’i.Wihyu memme hainjinee’ nahandu’i. Enne wizha sudei’ tsaangu mabizhiahkande," mai.

                  The Creator said, "A foreign race of white people will come, who will become your friends. You should treat them well."

                  The Creator sure had a strange sense of humor!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I don't know what it is, but even before the war started, when I went there in town, they stared. All of them! The filthy rich ones literally put their noses up at you and sneer. I don't know, it's spooky though. I wish I don't have to fly out of there, I might have to in February. I had a friend who was a MP, a police officer, he was stationed in Bahrain for about 4 years, he told me some crazy incidents with the locals. Female sailors get molested during searches and they can't make accusations, because we are only embassadors there. I don't think anyone would like to hear that, but it's a cruel world.
                    Fall down 7 times, get up 8. MY FAMOUS WORDS.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Echo4Tango
                      I don't completely agree with Mr. President Bush's views, but I'll walk the plank for my country....for my family......for my honor.
                      For these words,
                      i send lots of good blessing(s), and i pray that y'all have a safe passage back home.
                      :agree?:
                      Inuk*
                      Inuk*



                      "A person who works with their hands is a laborer,
                      A person who works with their hands & their brain is a craftsman,
                      A person who works with their brain & their heart ... is an Artist".
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                      • #12
                        Great Words!

                        [QUOTE=Echo4Tango] . I don't completely agree with Mr. President Bush's views, but I'll walk the plank for my country....for my family......for my honor.

                        Damn, I wish we had about 20o Million more people like you and your family in America! those are GREAT words! I am a Navy Vet, and do understand how hard wars are...and what a hardship this brings to a family. But remember, NOTHING could be more important than what you have said...Country/Family/Honor...
                        You got my respect! All the best to you and your husband and family...you're among the best! We're proud of you!
                        Colonah

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                        • #13
                          I'm sitting here reading everyones responses and I honestly do not know how to feel. First off, on the Marine who is being charged. To be honest, I prolly would have done the same thing if I had been shot in the face a day before and just moments earlier hear of another Marine being killed in a mosque by a booby trapped dead insurgent. If it were possible I'd open my head and let you read or see what goes thru our minds and hearts. It is a very difficult thing to deal with but we deal with it. Because we have to. Not because we want to, we have to. War is a terrible thing. It's something no one in this world should ever experience, but to those that have or are, I tip my hat to you. This Marine will be fried. Court-martialed, imprisioned and dishonorably discharged for what he believed he did was right. Combat training and the military as a whole teach you to make decisions, life altering decisions, in a heartbeat. If not, it's either you or your buddy who is going home in a body bag. As much as I would like to back this Marine for his actions, he is still held accountable. And I can only pray for him. There have been some actions by our servicemen and women that leave a bad taste in our mouths. They believed that what they did was right. Do you understand what I mean? It's a matter of which is to be considered when in the heat of things. But when these actions are stupid (ie: Abu Ghraib), then those responsible should be punished. The Geneva Convention has an outline of war. A rule book, so to speak, called the Rules of Engagement. Also the Laws of War. These two are what the United States uses as a guideline for wars. It is supposedly to be used by every country to show humanity. I know sounds off but it is. These insurgents who are now fighting our troops and multinationals, plus the Iraqi National Guard, do not follow these same rules. The follow the custom of what they interpret the Koran as. Which explains the beheadings. Kidnappings are a tool. And suprisingly they still work in this day and age of terrorism. Ie: the Phillipines.
                          We, as Marines, as a military are considered professional in how we conduct ourselves and police each other. But when we allow these things, stupid things, to happen, then how much better are we than these insurgents? This Marine should be tried, but not to set an example of, which the govt. is very proficient of doing, but to hold him accountable. Along with his superiors, which in this case would have been the squad leader, the platoon sergeant and the platoon commander. They should all be held accountable for not policing their own. Which is something the military teaches you. But then again I will also have to keep in mind what kind of hell he went thru. I know, I've been there. I can picture myself in his place, in his same situation debating on whether or not I should move this body and risk killing myself or my fellow Marines. The reporter who filmed this action, has posted on the internet an open letter to the Marines. Specifically to 3/1, which was the unit my brother Sgt. T. belonged to. In it he tells the Mrines and quite especially this young Marine why it had been put out. Not for the sake of ratings in a tv war but to show reality of what our men and women go thru day to day. The memory of your fellow friends who have died in this country, comrades being sent home loaded with shrapnel or bullets, buddies who will never use a limb or be able to use both eyes or ears or to hold down a throat transmitter to speak. I, too have lost friends there and there memory haunts me day to day. From introducing them to the platoon and taking them around and going out buying drinks or just going to movies together. These memories haunt me as well. My brother sgt. T, lost many friends there as well. And he lost his ankle and has to hold down a troat transmitter to speak. His leg is held together by more than 200 hundred staples. This is what the reporter wanted america to realize. That this young 20 year old Marine was not acting on good judgment alone but on the thought of friends, who had become family, who had died. Not exactly revenge, more of a peace within himself. Blame is always self induced. I do that to this day. I blame myself for my friends dying, for my brother being injured. I understand there is most likely nothing I could have done to prevent it, but it's still the thought of me being home while they are there dying, shedding there blood, sweat and tears for me, for all of us. So I'll end this here, I said too much and I cannot continue without shedding a tear for my friends, my brothers. But I do sincerely hope you understand what I am writing about here.
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                          ...And shephards we shall be. For thee my lord, for thee. Power hath descended forth from thy hand. That our feet may swiftly carry out thy command. So we shall flow a river forth to thee. And teeming with souls shall it ever be. E Nomini Patri, E Fili, E Spiritu Sancti.

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