How do you feel about Natives serving in private military companies ?

[IlnuSoldier]

We all love and respect natives who serve in the armed forces... but what about natives who do mercenary work and/or work for "private security firms" (a.k.a. private military contractors) ?

Is it the same respect or less, since it is a private company as opposed to the actual Armed Forces ?

Also..in this light...

How do you feel about non-military "Warrior Societies" ?

Come on now, don't hold back !

[Ndnsoldierboy]

Well, if you are talking about Blackwater, they aren't allowed in Iraq...and not sure of any other security...not sure why you are calling them 'military'...thats not their job...they are SECURITY.

[IlnuSoldier]

Alright...private security firms..etc.etc..


How do you feel about them ? Native that serve in them ?


And.. what about the domestic "Warrior Societies" ?

[Josiah]

We all love and respect natives who serve in the armed forces... but what about natives who do mercenary work and/or work for "private security firms" (a.k.a. private military contractors) ?

Is it the same respect or less, since it is a private company as opposed to the actual Armed Forces ?

Also..in this light...

How do you feel about non-military "Warrior Societies" ?

Come on now, don't hold back !

Its been my experience that people that hire into these security groups were military at one point in there careers.
Typically they would not hire you if you did not posses some sort of Skill that was easily checked on by reviewing your military records. On the job training is not practical in this field, they want you ready to roll.
Boy Scouts with woodscraft need not apply...



Not sure what you mean by Non-Military " Warrior Societies"
Such as Bow Strings Society or Black Leggins?
These are made up of mostly veterans that were military...
Or are you talking again about the Boy and Eagle Scout

[SuzzeQ4]

well I don't know enough about the first half of your question so I will leave that for other who do.

As for warrior societies (and I mean actual warriors who go stand for us with the approval of thier elders in tat community); I have great respect for them. We are still at a place in N.America where our people need our traditional warriors to stand up for us and our land at times. Without them I'm sure we'd have nothing left. When they are near by standing up for us I like to make sure they have some food, clothes, blankets, tarps or whatever. These warriors stand up for us and go to jail for us as my friends husband did this year, the price he and his family paid for all of us this year was huge. They had a chance to stand down and recant their position to stay out of jail but his wife and kids said he should stay true to what he was doing. We need to remember to respect them!

[Lakota Wiyan]

Arent you talking about a JOB? I mean, its not a service that you pledge to, like in the military. It's like be a police officer or something.

The military is more like our Akicita, the warrior/protector societies. They commit to a way of life, and live by a code of conduct that they agree to when they enter into it. They have to pass tests, and prove themselves physically and mentally prepared to carry out their duties. They pledge to lay down their lives and forego all of their own pleasure and comforts for the well being of the people they are fighting for.

Private security firms hire people, and pay them, for the job they do. Its employment, and if past military training is required, and they have it, great. Good for them for seeking and obtaining employment. I'm not entirely sure what this post was supposed to lead to. It almost seems to me that there is some hidden insinuation being made here, but Im not clear about what it is. Or, maybe Im just being paranoid....is it my yearly paranoia day already???

[SuzzeQ4]

Not sure what you mean by Non-Military " Warrior Societies"
Such as Bow Strings Society or Black Leggins?
These are made up of mostly veterans that were military...
Or are you talking again about the Boy and Eagle Scout

I assumed he meant the warriors who stand at the blockades.

Lakota Wiyan I also wondered what was yet unsaid.

[Joe's Dad]

You respect a military veteran.

A mercenary is a mercenary. It doesn't matter what color they are, they don't do to defend the country...they do it for the MONEY.

Can you expound on 'non-military warrior' society.

Combat veterans,like ndnsoldierboy and 50cal, have my respect because they ARE combat vets who served in the military. Non combat vets also have my respect because they served in the military, and were obligated and ready, for combat duty.

Security firms also work at malls.

Lakota Winyan...good words.

[IlnuSoldier]

No no, actually this is answering my questions exactly..

No no... there is nothing "to get at"..

I was just trying to get people's ideas of what "soldier" is and what a "warrior" is... you know... definitions of what each means..etc.etc..

And as far as "non-military warriors"..

..yea, I mean like all those brothers and sisters who stood up to ---ironically-- the military at places like Oka, Wounded Knee,etc...etc..

Is the same respect that is accorded to a Professional Soldier (Military) accorded to someone who did it because the people needed some muscle and courage ?

My thoughts on Mercenaries is ... what is the line between the honor of a soldier and the "whatever" to a mercenary ..

.... is it based on bravery or sacrifice ?

Soldiers get PAID money and RETIREMENTS to serve in the Armed Forces..

So they are PAID as well--- the Army is not volunteers... people get paid for it.

So..again..what is the difference in a soldier and mercenary and an "Oka Defender" ?

What things are used to measure their bravery, courage, etc.etc...

Is a mercenary with a series of victories under his belt more or less of a "hero" than someone in the navy who never saw live combat ?

What is it that defines these views and boundries ?

That is what I am trying to lay out here.

[nighthawk58]

Maybe the more touchy question is... when these people are called to protect, and become 'warriors' ... Perhaps one would wonder why the Government would not declare war. In THIS way, a hero on either side would still be a hero, rather than a murderer, while the white one was the hero. Am I out of line to say these words? If so, I meant no harm to anyone here. I am speaking my heart.

[Josiah]

Is a mercenary with a series of victories under his belt more or less of a "hero" than someone in the navy who never saw live combat ?

That is what I am trying to lay out here.

Armed Forces have many jobs and doing your job is what you are trained and yes paid to do.
I served in the Navy and yes it is different form of combat than the guy that is fighting hand to hand...
But when your launching a plane to bomb those guys and your sucked up into an intake of an Aircraft your just as DEAD.
Or ran over by an aircraft recovering back on board
We average 6 deaths every-time a Carrier goes on a 6 month Deployment In Peacetime or War!!! ALL of them DIED for there country doing what they were trained to do...
John McCain was in the Navy and was sitting in his A4 when one of the Worst fires on a Carrier occurred during the height of Vietnam.
He was in his aircraft when the fire was roaring toward his plane and a CPO that had a portable fire-bottle ran toward him and shooting it into the inferno that engulfed his aircraft. That brave act allowed Ensign McCain to escape and at the next moment a 500 pounder lite off killing that CPO instantly!
In my book he is a HERO!
Yep he was just in the Navy...

I have met many combat Veterans in my day and they are just like me or anybody else
They put there pants on the same way I do
One leg at a time.
As for Decorations and Medals and such and calling them Hero's they would just as soon be left alone...
I have known way more Quiet Hero's than I have ever met the loud mouth ones that really were not in the stuff like they said they were...
Sitting down over a cold one and getting them to loosen up and tell there story
Well you hear a common theme in alot of them and that is they were doing there job and felt worse that their buddies did not make it back!!!
Medals are for the ones that lived and most of time those will be put away in a box somewhere

What is a definition of a Hero?
LOL
Most of the time you will hear them say I was just doing my job...
When we needed them to
They are the ones that when there is a Fire they attack it
They are the ones when there was an attack they went toward the fight
They are the ones that when everybody else was running around like chickens with there heads cut off cool and collected
They are not just in the Military
They are Firemen and Policemen they are the Thousands of Folks that do those crappy jobs that you dont want!!
They are People that everyday go to work and do there Job so that you Dont have to!

So to say that your any less a hero because somebody was shooting at you or you are Safely tucked far out to sea
LOL
Its Dangerous no matter where you go Buddy Roe!

Dead is Dead

[SmokeEater]

But when your launching a plane to bomb those guys and your sucked up into an intake of an Aircraft your just as DEAD.
Or ran over by an aircraft recovering back on board
We average 6 deaths every-time a Carrier goes on a 6 month Deployment In Peacetime or War!!! ALL of them DIED for there country doing what they were trained to do...
John McCain was in the Navy and was sitting in his A4 when one of the Worst fires on a Carrier occurred during the height of Vietnam.
He was in his aircraft when the fire was roaring toward his plane and a CPO that had a portable fire-bottle ran toward him and shooting it into the inferno that engulfed his aircraft. That brave act allowed Ensign McCain to escape and at the next moment a 500 pounder lite off killing that CPO instantly!
In my book he is a HERO!
Yep he was just in the Navy...

Hasn't the flight deck been called "the most dangerous (x)# of Acres on the face of the Earth?" I worked with a sailor that was an AB3 on the flight deck of the USS Ranger during Desert Storm, and he said that every line and marking on the deck of the carrier has been made in someone else's blood. Or how about the fact that the average sailor on Sea Duty spends 6 to 12 months out to sea on a regular basis.

There are many, many jobs that put sailors in harms way, not necessarily from the enemy, but just the nature of the job.

If I can modify a saying I like to say: Navy SEALS make movies. Sailors make history.

[IlnuSoldier]

I admit my example was flawed

Yes, I agree... my example was flawed.

I guess what I was trying to get at was the bravery factor.

How much does "facing the enemy" factor into the honor ?


What I am trying to say is... is the MAIN factor that you serve in the U.S. Military OR is it that you possess and demonstrate certain qualities ?

For example... I was using the example of sailor, not of disrespect, but because we do not see the sailor often times "rush the enemy".... but, yes, it is dangerous to be a sailor as well...so not a great example..


Here is what I mean :


You have a mercenary who proves his bravery and warrior skills and donates half his paycheck to his reserve's cultural program and elder's fund...

But he gets no special honor or awards... in fact, he gets some insult because he is a "mercenary".

But... a U.S. Army soldier ... who donates none of his paycheck to the elders or cultural center....

is considered a hero because he "is fighting for his people"

WTF ?

How is joining the white man's army (the same army THAT killed our ancestors) and killing other people in a foreign land ..

how does that "serve" the tribe ?

I am not saying that it is not brave and it most certainly -DOES- deserve respect...

..but I don't see how that "serves the tribe" where-as the mercenary's actions are seen as "not doing anything important".


Thus, my confusion.

Where are the lines between hero, soldier, warrior, etc.etc..

EXPLAIN please.. help me to understand... why the mercenary is "bad" and how the U.S. Indian Soldier is not an Uncle Tom.... don't just say "That is the way it is"...

..because 100 years ago natives FOUGHT AGAINST the U.S. Army.. .not IN the U.S. Army..

How come we look at Custer's Crow Scouts with disgust but we look at modern day Native soldiers with honor--- They are serving the same function... they are natives who serve in the U.S. Army...

..but why are they view differently ? I don't get it...

AND NOBODY has really addressed the topic of "Oka Defenders"---- why ?

Who is the "brave one"... the Native defending the Land Rights or the Native Soldier called in to suppress him ?

It just seems alittle Uncle Tom-ish to lay tons of honor on the Native Soldier who suppressed the Oka Defenders but to not lay an equal amount of honor on the Oka Defenders...

In a way... it seems like you are congratulating the soldier for propagating the white man's system.

I do not understand it--- and thus, I started the thread.

I believe that U.S. Miltiary deserves a TON of respect --- but not because of them simply being in the military..... but because of WHAT they did and the Qualities they possess and demonstrate.

But... those same qualities can come out in other non-military persons ...

...so why are they awarded with honor ?

What is the logic ?

That is my question.

Here is my final example, then I'm just done...

In my own tribe...

Mi'kmaw soldiers fought FOR the Mi'kmaw nation.. they did not fight in the British Army OR in the Revlotionary Army....

They fought in the Mi'kmaw Army... FOR the Mi'kmaw Nation

(Like any other tribe)

At some point though....

We began to only define the warriors and soldiers based on if they were fighting in the U.S. Army --- techincally, the army of the "enemy".

So.... what happened to honoring those individuals who still fight FOR Tribe but NOT in the U.S. Army ?

I know that many natives join the U.S. Military to be brave and make the white man feel like he can rely on natives to defend the country--- o.k., that is noble and it does help the tribe because it makes good Public Relations with the white government... that is very good.

But how come .... we only define "soldier" or "warrior" in the context of white man's military anymore ?

Can we not have our own soldiers and warriors... who fight for the tribe and answer ONLY to the elders ?


Why can't our own tribes have the own private standing forces ?

Why are they not considered soldiers anymore ?


*sigh*... This is my last post on this topic anyway... I don't think I am being clear with my questions.

[IlnuSoldier]

Josiah - You did mention firefighters and police... and this makes more sense to me. Thank you.

[SuzzeQ4]

Please don't make it your last post on the subject!!

I need this talked about, I need it talked about to heal part of an angry heart.

When I am at powwow and they call the warriors up with the vets I have a great day.

When I am at powwow and they only honor the vets my heart is angry.

When I was 15 I drove up to the rez every weekend with friends bringing supplies. These were supplies for the warriors at Oka. We got smacked around by both the SQ and the canadian military. I was a 15 yr old girl 5"5', 85 lbs (on crutches by the way with 2 broken legs). What kind of "bravery" did they show by those actions? Guns scare the crap out of me cause the first time I ever saw one was in the hand of a canadian soldier as he ordered me to the ground, put his foot on my back and his big azz gun to the nape of my neck. I still feel fear on my body when I see the soldiers walking around (cause I live in a city with an army base). It has taken alot for me to make friends with NDN people who are or were in the military. And when the different conflicts arrise & I once again take supplies to these brave warriors when the blockade is near by I wonder will these warriors be honored at the powwows this year? It is sad, I only ever had a taste of what they must face to bravely stand up for us and I believe they deserve our respect above all those with brave professions.