Photographs and Proper Behavior

[RDNKJ]

I'm getting such good advice on my other thread that I thought I'd start a new one with two other questions I have.

I've seen any number of posts in various threads concerning spectators taking pictures at powwows. I would, for the most part, never take a picture of any INDIVIDUAL without asking their permission first, but crowd scenes are a different story. I have two questions concerning photographing individuals.

What are y'all's opinions concerning taking a picture of an individual WHILE they are dancing (assuming I'm not using flash photography and I am where I'm supposed to be)? OK? Not OK? Depends on the dance? Depends on.....?

My second question concerns taking a picture of an individual in other situations. Say I want to photograph someone whose regalia I find particularly stunning. Should I offer them something for taking their picture? Money? A cig., if they smoke? Some frybread/a Coke from a nearby vendor? I ask because I've seen posts disapproving of NOT offering anything as well as posts disapproving of making the offer. What do y'all think?

My last question (for this thread anyway) is much more specific and concerns my attendance at Crow Fair. Are there any cultural things/pitfalls I should be particularly aware of specific to the Crow? For example, I learned to point at things with my lips/chin/eyes after spending some time in southeast Asia and accidentally offending some people by pointing with my hands.

Hope y'all don't find my questions too tedious. Thanks!

[hobbs49]

Good Q's. Just wondering what are your intentions for this photography? Are these pics going to sit in an album at home? Go on the web for the world to see? Be sold or used to sell? I think that the answer to this question will help others to answer your original questions regarding taking pictures.

One thing that I expect you'll hear is to pay attention to the MC. There might be times, where it is desired to not have pictures taken and the MC will generally announce that. You should honor the command to not take pics.

[RDNKJ]

Thanks Hobbs. I didn't think of that.

The pics would pretty much be sitting in an album at home. I am not a professional photog., so they would NOT be sold. The only public use I could conceive of would be PERHAPS including some on my account at VirtualTourist.com, and that would depend on the picture. I wouldn't have any qualms about posting a crowd scene on VT. I would consider posting a pic of someone dancing, but that would depend on the picture and how recognizable the person is in the picture. I would NOT publicly post any pic of a person like in my final example in my last post (Gee, your regalia is so beautiful, may I take your picture?) without that person's expressed permission.

Hope that clears things up.

Thanks.

[gtbdave]

Good Q's. Just wondering what are your intentions for this photography? Are these pics going to sit in an album at home? Go on the web for the world to see? Be sold or used to sell? I think that the answer to this question will help others to answer your original questions regarding taking pictures.

One thing that I expect you'll hear is to pay attention to the MC. There might be times, where it is desired to not have pictures taken and the MC will generally announce that. You should honor the command to not take pics.

In my experience, I find it is mostly a grab bag. At some pow wows the MC will invite you to take pictures/video of the arena floor, (Red Earth), at others, (Choctaw Nation), they will have rent-a-cops patrolling for anyone taking pictures. I never take any pictures/video off the arena floor so I don't know about that. There is really no way that pow wow people can tell what you are going to use the pictures for, it's not like you have a big sign on you forehead, all that is just mostly hot air and nonsense. There are really no hard and fast rules, generally I would say that if you see pictures of such events on the internet or on U-tube it is ok to take all the pictures that you want. You are always going to have that occasional ornery Indian that is going to object to just about anything you do, but that's probably true at any event that you might attend. I know that at some reservations in New Mexico, that they ban cameras and video equipment, and have a big sign saying so. I figure if they don't want cameras, etc. they should really not hold functions for the public, or advertise in their flyers, etc., that they don't want cameras. I spend alot of money on my cameras/video stuff, I just don't attend functions that don't allow them. On a recent trip to New Mexico and Gathering of Nations we bypassed the places that didn't allow cameras, but we still bought alot of stuff, got some great video and pictures, and had a good time. I think that if people want their privacy, it's best to leave them to their privacy, and they should only put on private events, invitation only, etc., not open to the public, and begging the public to attend, only to abuse them when they get there. When these ornery cusses start banning the stuff on U-tube, all over the internet, and on local tv, you can begin to take them seriously. Maybe eventually you won't be able to see a picture of a Native American anyplace, only in pencil sketches, from memory. It would be like in "Godfather", you take a picture, and some thugs comes along and breaks your camera, and throws a few 100 dollar bills at you. Heck this site is mostly just pictures of pow wow dancers and attendees. Who knows, maybe the ornery cusses are working to ban this site?

[RDNKJ]

Thank you much, GTBDave. That's kind of what I thought. But I've never been on a rez before, so I thought it would be a good thing to ask. To be forwarned is to be forarmed!

[gtbdave]

Thank you much, GTBDave. That's kind of what I thought. But I've never been on a rez before, so I thought it would be a good thing to ask. To be forwarned is to be forarmed!

No sweat. By the way, I used to live in the Austin, Tx., area, worked there for years. We lived in the Buda/Kyle area, and then in the Drippings Springs area. The kids went to Hays Schools and to Dripping Springs Schools, of course. It's a beautiful area to live in, we were near Hamilton Pool at Dripping Springs. I attended ACC there, part-time, until I got enough credts to transfer them back to a college in Michigan to get my degree. I liked Austin, just couldn't make enough money to stay there. Oklahoma is more my style, alot more Indians here. The only time I seen any Indians in Texas was at the Red Rose or the Yellow Rose, although I did get alot of help from the Alabama-Coushatta, when we first moved there.

[RDNKJ]

No sweat. By the way, I used to live in the Austin, Tx., area, worked there for years. We lived in the Buda/Kyle area, and then in the Drippings Springs area. The kids went to Hays Schools and to Dripping Springs Schools, of course. It's a beautiful area to live in, we were near Hamilton Pool at Dripping Springs. I attended ACC there, part-time, until I got enough credts to transfer them back to a college in Michigan to get my degree. I liked Austin, just couldn't make enough money to stay there. Oklahoma is more my style, alot more Indians here. The only time I seen any Indians in Texas was at the Red Rose or the Yellow Rose, although I did get alot of help from the Alabama-Coushatta, when we first moved there.

Yeah, this part of Texas is very nice. The hill country is gorgeous, and Austin is a great town. Too bad so much is getting paved over with high-priced condos. It is a LOT different than when I moved here 20+ years ago. And it's more expensive than ever...highest cost of living (and about the lowest wages) in Texas! The Red Rose ain't no more, but the Yellow Rose is still going strong.

I grew up in Bixby, Oklahoma, right outside of Tulsa. My mom still lives in Pryor. We went to the Tulsa powwow every year, plus smaller ones in the surrounding area. After Oklahoma it was kind of a culture shock moving down here. It was like "where are all the NDNs?!"

[gtbdave]

Yeah, this part of Texas is very nice. The hill country is gorgeous, and Austin is a great town. Too bad so much is getting paved over with high-priced condos. It is a LOT different than when I moved here 20+ years ago. And it's more expensive than ever...highest cost of living (and about the lowest wages) in Texas! The Red Rose ain't no more, but the Yellow Rose is still going strong.

I grew up in Bixby, Oklahoma, right outside of Tulsa. My mom still lives in Pryor. We went to the Tulsa powwow every year, plus smaller ones in the surrounding area. After Oklahoma it was kind of a culture shock moving down here. It was like "where are all the NDNs?!"

The Red Rose is gone, what a shocker. That was the only way I could find my way around Austin, "How far is that from the Red Rose?"

Yeah, I'm going the Tulsa Pow Wow, we haven't made reservation yet, but we will. Last year we had to stay way down in Muskogee, because Tiger Woods decided to have a golf game on the same day I wanted to go to the PowWow.

Texas is a cultural shock to anyone, I moved there from Michigan, via New Mexico. I always thought it was a professional town, good for professionals, not much for the others. It is the State Capitol, and it has UT, and all those hi-techs. My kids could probably do ok there, as they are all college grads, but none of them ever went back to Austin, even after graduation from college. My Son was hoping for a job in Dallas, but got a better job in Florida. One of my Daughters works in Tulsa town, and the other works all over Oklahoma because she is in Health Care Administration, she gets transferred alot, but may settle here in SE Oklahoma, because she has more seniority now. My Daughter was going to take a position in HCA in Salina, Ok., which is near Pryor, I think, I get those little towns mixed up, but she turned it down and went with a different Company, and then took a position here in SE Oklahoma, Choctaw Country. We have lived all over Ok., Tulsa area, Sand Springs, OKC area, and now down in Choctaw Country, even a few years at Tenkiller lake. That would be Creek, Cherokee, Cheyenne, and Choctaw Nations, respectively. I am Ottawa/Chippewa Indian, and I have never lived in the Ottawa Nation in Oklahoma, just visited their pow wow. I spent a good part of my childhood on the reservation in Michigan, and went to Indian boarding school, for a time.

[Leatherberry]

thank you for this, I have only been to one pow wow so far and I am famous for whipping out my camera and taking candid shots (I didn't know this was frowned upon generally either, my family probably talks about me when I'm not there lol!) but they were very clear about when it was ok and not ok to do certain things at the pow wow, and it was easy to follow. I did not know the part about offering someone something to take their picture either, so again thanks for the post! and hello :D

[hobbs49]

Hi Leatherberry!! Welcome to PW.com!

[Leatherberry]

thank you Hobbs!

I always loved that comic strip by the way

[Kaina1128]

Deleted

[gtbdave]

Here's my two cents:

I got stopped once in the middle of an intertribal to pose for a picture for two German tourists...that was not ok, but I obliged so that we wouldn't cause a scene (although I kinda wish I hadn't). People should always offer something when taking pictures of/with powwow dancers.

I'm a little ambivalent about the pictures in groups. I can see how it would be ok and not ok. As long as it's not during an honoring or other ceremony, I think it's fine with me at least. My picture/image has been used without my permission many times in adds and videos. I would be ok with that if it was the powwow committee or powwows.com using it, but I've gotten put in someone's book about powwows and someone's video about urban Indians without my knowing. I wasn't too happy to find that out...

Bottom line, just be respectful!

Here's my penny's worth. I was at GON, on the perimeter, walking around, looking for a place to sit. It was so crowded, like bumper to bumper. These dancer came by, apparently glad to see each other, all huggy and all. They stopped to take a picture, I was in the picture taking area, but with no place to go, because it was so crowded, without elbowing my way thru people, so, I put my arm around one of the fancy shawl dancers, and they took the picture. The lady beside me was just grinning like crazy, she was in the picture too. Some fun, huh?

[RDNKJ]

Thanks Kaina. I'm always interested in what you have to say. (I read a lot of posts on many topics on here before I joined.)

It boggles the mind that there are people who would be so "clueless" as to stop someone to take their picture during a dance. When I asked about taking a pic of someone who is dancing, I meant sitting in the bleachers and using my zoom to focus on a particular dancer! Using anyone's picture for commercial purposes without their permission is just wrong.

Being respectful and using common sense goes a long way, but it is always nice to know the "fine points." Until I read it on here, it never would have even occurred to me to offer anything to a person for taking their picture.

Too bad you can't make it to Crow Fair this year. I'm looking forward to it!

[RDNKJ]

My Son was hoping for a job in Dallas, but got a better job in Florida. One of my Daughters works in Tulsa town, and the other works all over Oklahoma because she is in Health Care Administration, she gets transferred alot, but may settle here in SE Oklahoma, because she has more seniority now. My Daughter was going to take a position in HCA in Salina, Ok., which is near Pryor, I think, I get those little towns mixed up, but she turned it down and went with a different Company, and then took a position here in SE Oklahoma, Choctaw Country. We have lived all over Ok., Tulsa area, Sand Springs, OKC area, and now down in Choctaw Country, even a few years at Tenkiller lake. That would be Creek, Cherokee, Cheyenne, and Choctaw Nations, respectively. I am Ottawa/Chippewa Indian, and I have never lived in the Ottawa Nation in Oklahoma, just visited their pow wow. I spent a good part of my childhood on the reservation in Michigan, and went to Indian boarding school, for a time.

Good old, Tulsey Town! I hardly recognize it anymore, it has changed so-o-o much over the years. So has Bixby. When I was growing up Bixby only had 4000 people, and there wasn't really anything except farmland between 112th Street in Bixby and 71st in Tulsa. Yep, Salina is right near Pryor. I get all the little towns confused too. We used to go to Locust Grove all the time to visit two of my Mom's aunts. I've been to Tenkiller, many many times. When we went camping and fishing we usually went to Lake Oolagah. Although sometimes we'd go camping in the Anadarko area. There are a lot of beautiful places in Eastern Oklahoma. We used to drive the Kiamichi Trail to see the fall colors, and never missed the Azalea Festival in Muskogee. Do you know if they still have the Batfish on display there? I'm afraid the only things I know about the Ottawa and Chippewa are what we were taught in school; and that isn't much. Indian boarding school, huh. I don't know what to say. If you don't mind my asking, what was your experience like? I don't mean to pry, I'm just curious about that dark time in our histories.