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  • Color Guard question

    I was recently talking with a friend from Wisconsin who goes to powwows mainly in the Great Lakes region.

    I told her about a recent thread where it was debated whether or not police and firemen should be allowed to come in with the color guard. The rational being they put their lives on the line for the people.

    My friend said she has seen some powwows where Natives who had been a part of Wounded Knee and the Oka resistance have chosen to come in with the color guard at powwows. Their rational being they put their lives on the line for the people.

    Do you think police, firemen and Natives who participated in Wounded Knee and Oka have a place alongside veterans, during grand entry?
    Powwows will continue to evolve in many directions. It is inevitable.

  • #2
    You know I have thought about this one before...
    I guess who ever they ask to help carry in the flags and if they feel confortable carrying them in alongside other veterans.

    Typically here in Oklahoma they will ask for veterans to do so, which usually is not very hard to find at a powwow here abouts...

    I have been asked several times to help with the flags as is our right as a veteran.
    ᎠᏂᎩᏚᏩᎩ - Anigiduwagi
    Till I Die!

    Comment


    • #3
      Such a sticky situation... where do we draw the line??? I have great respect for the Police, as well as the Firemen, but where do we draw the line.

      My reasoning being the fact that some Vietnam Veterans get offended when someone claims to be a Vietnam Vet when in fact they are a Vietnam Era Vet. Basically someone that served during Vietnam but didn't serve in Vietanam is considered a Vietnam Era Vet. To the People who served and seen action in Nam there is a heckuva difference, or any conflict for that matter. I can go on and on... I have learned there is even a difference between a peacetime and wartime vet. There is even a difference between a vet who has seen action (shot at the enemy or has been shot at) and a vet who has killed a enemy with their own two hands.

      It's the same for the Chosin few... some claim to be one of the Chosin few, this why the carry a card to prove they were there.

      I don't know the answer, and I won't try to answer. I'll leave that to our Veterans (such as my Dad WWII). I feel strongly for our all of our Veterans, this is why I posted what I did.
      I'm innocent I tell ya!!!

      Comment


      • #4
        I've seen them ask Boarder Patrol to come in too.

        Here only a Combat Vet can actually carry a flag, but any "Warrior" may come in and dance with them during the honor song. That's mostly what I've seen, many of whom don't come out during the initial GE, but just when the honor dance is announced and then they are all invited to come in and dance with the Vets.

        Comment


        • #5
          as a vet, i don't see a problem with asking a police officer or fireman to help out like this cause they may not put their life on the line in service of country but the sure as h.ll do put their life on the line for service of the comunity. the may not get shot at daily or even yearly but most of them have been shot at trying to protect someone else, and the firemen are constantly putting their lives on the line by going into a burning building. so my hats of to them

          Comment


          • #6
            I personally think all Veterans should be able to carry a flag, and any veteran, family of a fallen vet, natives, fire fighters or police should be welcome in for the honor dance

            Comment


            • #7
              This powwow here in NC always picks a theme. This year is was to honor those that serve the community - police, fire, judges, local politicians from the tribe, etc... There were profiles in the program book and other stuff around highlighting them.

              So during one of the veterans' songs, the AD and the committee asked me to invite the first responders - police, fire, rescue - into the arena behind the veterans, which I thought was appropriate.

              Just my two cents...
              Visit www.myspace.com/stoneycreeksingers

              Visit www.myspace.com/sandonj

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by StoneyClaus View Post
                This powwow here in NC always picks a theme. This year is was to honor those that serve the community - police, fire, judges, local politicians from the tribe, etc... There were profiles in the program book and other stuff around highlighting them.

                So during one of the veterans' songs, the AD and the committee asked me to invite the first responders - police, fire, rescue - into the arena behind the veterans, which I thought was appropriate.

                Just my two cents...
                I agree, if your pow wow was honoring them they should come in behind the veterans.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hi everybody,

                  I am a fire fighter of soon to be 28 years. At alot of pow wows in my area, fire fighters and police take part in the grand entry, sometimes fire fighters will carry flags upon request of elders and war vets. The elders and war vets in my area have recognized what we do in real life, just like they did in some ways. Some fire fighters who have saved real lives, have picked up someone who is in suffering and put him self in harms way have earned this right according to the Vets; they said its just like in war, you come to the aid of an injured soldier and that fire fighters have come to the aid of an injured person in need.

                  A good friend of mine has asked me to post this for him.
                  ------------------------------------------------------------

                  This is Entitled; Thank You

                  I recently had the honor of extending a small token of our appreciation to our military service personnel and, in particular, those firefighters who have chosen to serve in both the fire service and our nation’s military. Each one of them represents the American respect for the rights of all people’s dignity, freedom, and liberty—rights that we correctly believe all people were endowed with by their creator and rights for which this nation has always been willing to fight. The defense of this same human dignity from disaster, accident, fire, and natural human frailty is what defines our heritage service as firefighters.

                  In both military service and our fire service, simply put, service is our most fundamental cultural value. None may be higher, for from service spreads all of our other values. Service is rooted in humility—humility that drives us to believe that we must give of ourselves to express our respect and love of what we have been given. A very important part of the humility of service is the recognition that our lives are only made meaningful when we do for others, not when we do for ourselves.

                  Service means that we gratefully share our gifts, our talents, and our time for the benefit of others. Service means we understand every life is sacred and everyone is entitled with and everyone is blessed with God’s grace, and that as firefighters we are obligated to protect this grace, others’ lives, even at our own peril.

                  The firefighters and military personnel of today represent the greater collected work of generations of soldiers, sailors, guardsmen, airmen, marines, and fire service members who have been and continue to be the greatest generation after generation—the greatest example of service for whatever generation they happen to have been born into.

                  I want to share one of the most inspiring stories you may ever hear, a story rich in humanity and steeped in dignity. It is a story about service to the city of Indianapolis and this country. It is a story about bravery, sacrifice, and honor. Most of all, it is a story about what it truly means to be a member of the fire service.

                  Let me take you back more than 60 years to July 1945, somewhere between Guam and the Leyte Gulf. The USS Indianapolis is sailing alone to rejoin the fleet. Cruising unaccompanied was highly unusual during wartime, but she had just delivered a top secret payload, and few knew where she was or for what reason. Shortly after midnight, she was hit by two torpedoes from a Japanese submarine. The first blew away her bow; the second struck her near midship. The resulting explosion split her to the keel, and within minutes she went down by the bow.

                  The Indianapolis had about 1,200 men on board—survivors believe that about 900, including wounded and badly burned men, made it into the water. There were few rafts that survived the attack, and not every sailor had time to don a life jacket. But still, 900 men were believed to have made it alive into the toxic oil-coated sea. Only 317 survivors from that night would be rescued, for sunrise brought shark attacks, which continued until the men were physically removed from the water, almost five days later.

                  For five days, these 900 men faced the most terrifying days in the history of the Navy. While these brave servicemen struggled against starvation, thirst, exposure, and the relentless brutality of the sharks, the Navy for awhile had no idea that they were even missing. One by one, men were savagely taken, and one by one, the others grew more and more determined to survive—not for themselves but to live to tell their brothers’ story, to live so the rest of the world would never forget their brothers’ final act of service.

                  The sharks did what the enemies’ bullets and bombs couldn’t do: They brought fear into the lives of the men of the Indianapolis. They were a threat for which the men of the Indianapolis had no defense, no refuge, and no escape. Yet by luck, and still another incredible act of selfless bravery, five days later 317 men were rescued from the water.

                  One of those men on the ill-fated USS Indianapolis was James O’Donnell of the city of Indianapolis, who on his return joined the Indianapolis (IN) Fire Department (IFD), where he served proudly and exemplary for 35 years. James retired as an officer, and many men and women were fortunate to serve under him. He spoke rarely but reverently of his service in the Navy, but his fellow IFD firefighters knew of his ordeal. He never asked for special considerations or special attention; he just “did his job” as he did while in the Navy.

                  I thought we should take some time this July 30 and remember James O’Donnell and his USS Indianapolis shipmates. We should say thank you to our dads and moms and granddads and grandmoms who served and to our brother and sister firefighters who are now serving. Some of us need to thank our sons and daughters who are following this proud, almost uniquely American, heritage of unselfish service-centered character.

                  It is clear to me that the character of the fire service did not just happen; it was forged through time and experience—forged out of tradition. We should take exceptional pride in our fire service customs, our heritage, and our traditions. Our customs and traditions are part of our earned heritage of service. Etiquette and discipline are founded on this heritage of service. It is by adhering to these customs and courtesies that we define ourselves as belonging to something greater than ourselves—as belonging to the fire service.

                  You see, tradition is not about things or artifacts. Tradition is taking action. It is the living embodiment of our heritage. Tradition requires we pass down the elements of our heritage from generation to generation. Firefighters are obligated to uphold our rich heritage through our actions, conduct, appearance, and attitude.

                  Remember forever. Remember them all.

                  June 1, 2008
                  Remember 09-11-01

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I live and powwow in the great lakes region & yep alot of the powwows include our warriors withe the vets, And why wouldn't we hounor those who stood up for our land, rights and lives in the same way as the vets. I think it's wrong not to include them. As for police & fireman, well that's something to think about, afterall they risk their lives daily.
                    Suzze

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Observation on Great Lakes Pow-wows

                      I'm not from this area originally, but have moved up here recently and have noticed that the color guard/vets contingent during GE is way bigger than almost anywhere else I have ever been.
                      All summer I have seen at least 2 color guards- local, inter-tribal and/or one or more of the other rez's that had a good showing, plus a number of other vets. I am used to one color guard usually only with 3-4 flags.
                      You want to see something moving- go to Menominee's Memorial day pow-wow- veterans honoring, grand entry is every color guard in the state, plus others. It'll put a lump in your throat. Plus the Woodbowl is just a great location- under cover, out of the wind, and the trees even block a lot of rain.

                      I have seen firemen and police out there as well, but I figured that they were vets who were workin' the pow-wow as part of their job.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by legalstraight View Post

                        I have seen firemen and police out there as well, but I figured that they were vets who were workin' the pow-wow as part of their job.

                        Does anyone know if firemen and police have a flag for their occupation like the four branches of the service?
                        Powwows will continue to evolve in many directions. It is inevitable.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by WhoMe View Post
                          Does anyone know if firemen and police have a flag for their occupation like the four branches of the service?
                          No not officially...
                          They are not a Federal Agency so they would not be covered under USC regs :
                          United States Code. Title 4, Chapter 1 pertains to the flag; Title 18, Chapter 33, Section 700 regards criminal penalties for flag desecration; Title 36, Chapter 3 pertains to patriotic customs and observances. These laws were supplemented by Executive Orders and Presidential Proclamations.

                          However there are numerous places that manufacture Unofficial flags such as:
                          CIVILIAN SERVICE FLAGS:
                          FIREMEN
                          FIREFIGHTERS
                          FIRE RESCUE
                          EMS
                          STAR OF LIFE
                          MOURNING
                          REMEMBRANCE

                          USA FLAGS.com - Civilian Service Flags

                          Civilian Flags, Fire, Police, EMS, Star of Life, Mourning Fans and Flags, Memorial Cases. At Great Prices.

                          https://www.sslzone.com/emflag/milit...an%20flags.htm
                          ᎠᏂᎩᏚᏩᎩ - Anigiduwagi
                          Till I Die!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by WhoMe View Post
                            Does anyone know if firemen and police have a flag for their occupation like the four branches of the service?
                            I need to make a correction... there are in actuality 6 branches of service to our country. The lesser known U.S.M.M. and the U.S.C.G. my father was a WWII combat veteran 1942-46 and did service under both branches. He served with pride 3 years with the Merchant Marines, and 1 year with the Coast Guard. My rez flies all 6 flags at one of our Veteran Memorials.
                            I'm innocent I tell ya!!!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              By the way to answer the Question about Flags and Color Guards
                              The US FLAG IS governed under Protocol and there is an USC (United States Code) that was Written for Civilians, it is called the The Flag Code governing the use of the Flag but it is entirely VOLUNTARY!!!

                              Now Customs are something entirely different
                              Customs are created to perform a certain act such as only using veterans to carry in the US Flag and the Various other flags that could be brought in during say a Parade in. It has become a custom to use Veterans to carry the flags because generally we received some sort of training in Marching and the proper care of the Flag. Besides it is a great honor to carry the Flag for us Veterans...

                              Official Protocol regarding the Carrying of the US Flag and All other flags does not SPECIFY that a VETERAN must be the one carrying the flag...

                              So you can use Whomever you please to Carry the Flags and Staffs
                              But it has become a Custom to use Veterans...

                              US CODE--TITLE 4--FLAG AND SEAL, SEAT OF GOVERNMENT, AND THE STATES
                              Last edited by Josiah; 10-02-2008, 05:22 PM.
                              ᎠᏂᎩᏚᏩᎩ - Anigiduwagi
                              Till I Die!

                              Comment

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