Female eagle staff carriers

[WhoMe]

How do you feel about this???

[soopashinaab]

Okay, I'll bite...

I think if a woman has been in the service, or currently serving why not??

I know of a woman here on my rez that is not only a veteran, which any one can become, but she is also a veteran who has served during wartime, which not every veteran has done, and she is a combat veteran, which is even a step higher than a wartime veteran. She has been over seas in Iraq and Afghanistan several times and has actually taken and returned enemy fire.

I think if a male veteran that did nothing but sit on his butt and collect a paycheck from the Government, which I know several of, can carry a flag then I think a female veteran should also be able to carry an eagle staff... so long as she's not on her time.

[Zotigh]

How do you feel about this???

This "Grand Entry" thing is a legacy from the Wild West shows of the last century.

YouTube - Thomas Edison's Buffalo Bill Wild West Show

It seems to have morphed into some sort of pseudo-native-veteran-thing that some folks are even making posts about as if it were ceremonial in nature.

If the parade is what is being mimicked, then the "eagle staff" is what...the equivalent to a drum majors' baton or mace?

In one of our tribe's warrior societies the leaders of the society carry crooked lances that designate their status as leaders. They lead the way with those hooked lances adorned with feathers and other war trophies. Nobody carries their lances for them.

I wonder if this "eagle staff" thing is a meld of parade baton and leadership lance. What is it meant to represent? Are there any rules for a parade that is a carry-over from wild west shows?

The "eagle staff" is seen alongside the flags at the front of the parade. Is the staff meant to be some sort of flag symbol? Representing whom? If someone drops the staff, do we burn it?

If the staff is a pan-native device, then there are more questions than gender about its use.

[grayback]

I've never associated modern eagle feather staffs with purely military concerns. I've always viewed them as a kind of "national Indian flag", with some of them dedicated to the memory or honor of specific families/organizations/veterans. SOME of them are 'military', but by no means are ALL of them.

The eagle staffs I've seen were created by and are "owned" by specific individuals, families, tribes, or organizations (civil or military). A few of them have, on occasion, designated women for the honor of carrying the staff into the arena. But I've only seen it happen once at a contest powwow (at Shakopee, by a woman who was clearly a military vet). The rest occured at traditional powwows.


I sure wouldn't say it's common, but I don't remember ever hearing others criticize it, although I'm sure there are those who disagree with the practice.

I have no problem with women carrying a grand entry staff, be they veterans, elders, or simply a respected person in the community. It's an honor to be asked, but I don't see why it should be a strictly male honor. If their family "owns" the staff, and wants a female family member to carry it, I don't see a problem either.


Part of the infrequency may very well be that the staffs are often still viewed as "warrior" emblems, and many don't view that as a women's role. There are usually plenty of male veterans at a powwow to choose from, if the staff owner doesn't want to carry it themselves. I think there are those who would be offended to see a non-veteran (or non-combat vet), carry a staff if there is a veteran around to do it. But there are many veteran women now seen in the rifle and honor guards at powwows, so why not have them carry eagle staffs as well?

Some if it might also be that the eagle staffs come in ahead of all the other dancers, and tradition at powwows dictates that women enter behind the men (barring female "royalty"). I definitely know of men (and women) who believe women should never enter the arena ahead of male dancers, let alone do so carrying a "warrior" staff.

But I think it's fine. As I said, I've always thought the eagle staff transcends being a purely military emblem. Even if it didn't, women serve in the military as well. They increasingly come under fire, and return fire. I've always been surprised that there are no women's veteran groups that have their own associated eagle staffs by now. Or maybe there are.


Maybe most women just don't want the responsiblity of carrying the flag, even if they happen to be asked? Maybe most men (most staffs seem to be "managed" by men) don't think to ask a woman (vet or otherwise), in the first place?


I expect we start to see it happen more often... then we'll start to see it happen more often. I doubt it will ever become as contentious an issue as women sitting at drums?

-grayback

[grayback]

To say a bit more--

If you search around the web (including this very site), you can certainly find "reputable" powwow pics that show women carrying eagle staffs at grand entry. From the looks of things, it happens more frequently than I've ever realized, which is great.

Also, if we are talking about any eagle staff, and not just grand entry staffs, I've personally seen women carry them at a lot of gatherings with no protests about it. I've seen plenty of women/girls carry the eagle staffs/lances on the Mankato Spirit Run, the Dakota Remembrance Walks, and on the Longest Walk 2.

-grayback

[anishinabealltheway]

A veteran is a veteran.

[SuzzeQ4]

there is a female combat vet in our community (of course there is a base here too). She caries the veterns staff around this area and no one has ever complained. She travels with the male vets and seems well repected by them.

[yaahl]

Sorry to post on an older thread but I wanted to add a small tribute to the many women from First Nation communities who stepped up to the plate when their country asked them. Many if it had not been for their courage to join, people like myself and my daughter would never have been able to have the career we've enjoyed.

Mary Greyeyes from Muskeg lake SK- the first Canadian Aboriginal woman to join the Army in 1941 - served overseas in the UK.

Attached is a collage of some of the Aboriginal women in the CF during the first and second world war.

From left to Right: Top Row: Marion Miller, Joan Martin, Peggy Stonechild (L) and Mary Greyeyes (R), Jannet Foulds, Edith Gordon. Middle Row: Natalie DeLaronde, Teresa Dion, Mamie Wetelainen, Margaret Pictou LaBillois with Granddaughter, Margaret Bruyere, Nellie Blankenship (with beret). Bottom Row: Dorothy Bellerose, Edith Anderson – WWI, Gertrude Fraser, Mary Ann Mirasty (Front Row - second from left at Hairdressing Graduation). Centre: Aboriginal Veterans Medal. Lower Right Insert: Canadian Women’s Army Corps Athena Collar pins and Cap pin. Courtesy: Lonny O’Brien

Today in the CF, women are fully integrated into all trades and elements (including all combat arms trades and hard sea surface and subsurface trades) and if these women want or are asked to carry the Eagle Staff, then they should be afforded the respect and opportunity to do so.

I think that to just say only those who have combat experience should be allowed to carry the staff would leave a fair number of both men and women who have served their countries proudly but in a support role or non-combat arms trade. The chute packer or the cook or the supply tech or the gun plumber or the steward played just as significant role as the combat arms folks. To suggest that only a few of the entire "team" members are revered while others are barred from carrying the staff indicates a lack of understanding that a military isn't about just one trade but many trades doing a job with a collective purpose.

If folks are interested there is a very good paper written by Grace Poulin on Aboriginal women in the CF.

To the women that went before me - I say a big Haw aa

[anishtradish]

Us Ojibway people must have accepted it back in the day, so I wouldn't have any problem with it nowadays. As with anyone, I think you have to have the right to carry a staff, or at least doing it on behalf of someone else. I also believe though there are certain people who have traditional rights to carry staffs, even if they didn't serve in the government military.


Though I have seen a few native feminist groups starting to break traditions and start up their own things, such as drum groups, and pipe ceremonies and eagle staffs and such. Nothing wrong with it in my opinion really, but I see them colliding with some of our traditional ways in some of our communities, almost in a rebellious fashion, which maybe I don't care much for. Almost like they are trying to bring in mainstream feminist movement issues into our culture, even though women are respected equally already, but we do have some traditions for both genders to what they can and can't do. It can be a touchy subject. Especially nowadays when our traditional elders are passing away, and being replaced by people who might not have all of the teachings that they should. Every time we loose an elder, we loose a part of our past, and a lot of people make stuff up to replace it.

[yaahl]

Anishtradish, What a fantastic pic, do you have the details behind it?

Have to agree with you on the feminist push. I had a class once in law school that was about feminist jurisprudence, one of the topics was female genital mutilation in some African countries. Now, I admit it is a horrible practise as seen through my eyes of a woman who grew up in North American and the Yukon for that matter. The problem I saw was not so much the practise but the 30 other women in the class that condemned it without trying to understand the culture and way of life behind it. I asked a question of them all of who are we to impose our standard to these men and women? Perhaps to these folks seeing our men and women in scanty clothing on beaches would be considered horrible to them. Once I explained that all we were doing was pushing our agenda onto a culture that may not really need or want us to do that, was exactly what the patriarch of western cultures did to women and assumed subordinate cultures they seemed to get it then.

I think anytime anyone tries to push something upon a people without proper consideration to how such a change will reflect in future generations, will find it isn't the right time to push. Change, as my gran used to say, comes from within not from outside. The more natural the change the longer and more effective it is.

It took over one hundred years of having a Navy here in Canada before women were accepted into all trades (including subs). But the good thing is, that the change was from within, not pushed upon the Navy by outsiders. Sure I have these debates with my American and British counterparts about allowing women to serve in all trades, but their reflective countries aren't ready for it. Until they are, a great big wall will stand in the way. But when they are finally ready to change within, the change will be seamless and unobstructed.

Our communities are struggling to reclaim their identities and come out from under the yoke of paternalism from our respective governments, forcing change to accept women drums etc, as my gran used to say, is like trying to put a pair of track shoes on Simon and Garfunkel and expecting them to run marathons. (think of their song, Slow down, you're going to fast, got to make the morning last...) Changes that happen too fast never take a firm hold on a culture... now hands up those who think we ought to know all about that from our histories? Introducing feminist theory to a once matriarchal society just seems wrong anyway. Perhaps the feminists need to be learning from us.

As for the Eagle staff, well here in Canada at least, our communities are seeing their young women going off to war, as they have for generations, and coming back as heroes. Here in the CF, we have a program called Bold Eagle where traditions of First Nations and the Military are merged to afford young FN recruits to enter the forces with confidence and a new appreciation of who they are and what they are capable of doing. I can name 1000 kids that started in this program over the last 19 years and went on to become heroes and role models for their communities. I'd ask any one of them, male or female to carry a staff.

I also have to agree with you Anishtradish, that we have to stop making sh*t up and filling in the blanks and selling it to each other as centuries old traditions. I really do think that is what is stifling us and causing the mainstream to assume our cultures are lost or frozen in time. Buffy Ste Marie said it well, "Instead of kids just hearing about beads and baskets and fringe, and about what 'was' and 'were,' we present Native American culture as a living contemporary culture."

anyway, this is just my two elk teeth

[soopashinaab]

Us Ojibway people must have accepted it back in the day, so I wouldn't have any problem with it nowadays. As with anyone, I think you have to have the right to carry a staff, or at least doing it on behalf of someone else. I also believe though there are certain people who have traditional rights to carry staffs, even if they didn't serve in the government military.


Though I have seen a few native feminist groups starting to break traditions and start up their own things, such as drum groups, and pipe ceremonies and eagle staffs and such. Nothing wrong with it in my opinion really, but I see them colliding with some of our traditional ways in some of our communities, almost in a rebellious fashion, which maybe I don't care much for. Almost like they are trying to bring in mainstream feminist movement issues into our culture, even though women are respected equally already, but we do have some traditions for both genders to what they can and can't do. It can be a touchy subject. Especially nowadays when our traditional elders are passing away, and being replaced by people who might not have all of the teachings that they should. Every time we loose an elder, we loose a part of our past, and a lot of people make stuff up to replace it.

Good way of putting it...

[Zeke]

Truth is that there already is a "push from within" related to a variety of matters. (There's a pages long, inherently threatening to some, Gourd Dance thread detailing portions of the subject.)

Sure, you can postulate that Modern (i.e., "white") feminist movements are the root cause of all evil in these cases, but they are not. What you're witnessing is merely the evolution (it's pointless to debate whether it's "normal") of knowledge and culture. Languages die. Traditions get tossed. Mores modify.

What is backward is being afraid of it. (Or, do you still desire to fear/worship the sun?)

As for filling in blanks where they exist? That's always been done.

Let's not pretend otherwise.

[yaahl]

Well crumbs, I had a reply all typed out and when I hit submit, I got a server error. *Note to self, must save post before it gets eaten by the cyber monster*

Short of it was, Zeke I agree with you in part - disagree in other parts but the bottom line was time is the crucial element for any change - good or bad. If it's too quick, it may not be accepted, if it's forced - residential schools, legislation, ideology shifts etc then it may never be accepted, natural adaptation and evolution takes time to effect change (and in some cases shifts in ideology from within contribute).

I wanted to tell you about our adoulis with respect to men and women but I'll save that for another time when the server isn't so fragile.

[Zeke]

I wanted to tell you about our adoulis with respect to men and women but I'll save that for another time when the server isn't so fragile.

I look forward to it.

"Good stuff."

[CHEROSAGE]

I agree that the Grand Entry and events related can not be considered in a Ceremonial way. We have made more out of it than maybe necessary. Yes we do ask everyone to stand and remove their hats as is only appropriate with our flags beling paraded into a event. We have Flag songs etc..

This is not necessarily the same as many Ceremonial activities which the Gourd dance, Inlonshkas, Helushkas, etc. to include a sun dance or a church meeting.

Back to the topic at hand. This is an interesting matter in that we have our certain divisions of responsibilities between our women and men. Being that carrying an eagle staff should be up to the family, Clan, Tribe which the staff belongs to. If I ask either of my Daughters, Wife or Sister to carry our families staff then I expect that whould be good enough with anyone else.