the Duck and Dive is not a chicken dance song

[heartbeat]

Of you chicken dancers that know your history... even the Crow has the right to dance chicken because they paid for it from the Cree people and then adapted it to their style over the years. There are certin rights that need to followed in life. such as initiation ceremonies for the chicken dancers... How many chicken dancers out there can say that they have been initiated into that society. I imagine very few. Yes, it is important to learn the history and significance of the dances, the songs... without it we few indian people will be lost.

That brings me to the Duck and Dive. In the Battle of 1877, the Nez Perce people was attacked by the US Army at the Bighole valley. This attack came in early in the morning when all the people were sleeping. The Nez Perce had been celebrating the night before because they thought they had escaped the US calvery soldiers when they crossed over the Bitterroot Mountains. The soldiers were told to get as close as possible and shoot three volleys into each camp and move on. Little did they know that an unsuspecting elderman was up and walking around checking his horses. this man was shot dead and attack commenced. The soldiers did there task well and shot theree volleys into each camp killing the elders, woman and children in thier sleep. Soon the warriors had regrouped and pushed the soldiers back into the tree line angry for what they had done. The soldiers had placed a canon above the battlefield and fired a shot to scare the warriors off, but this did not scare them. instead the warriors charged the canon and after its second shot over took the canon and dismantled it. Those soldiers that escaped remember a sound that they would never like to hear again. It was the people morning over the ones that they had lost.

Those canon shots fired on the Nez Perce warriors in the 1877 Battle of Bighole is represented in that Duck and dive song. That song commemorates that battle and the time of hardship for the Nez Perce.

that is all

[billyjoejimbob]

Thank you for the explanation.

what are your thoughts on the DND bingused for competition? And for that matter, the sneak-up.

Both somewhat signify iomportant historical things and are being now used to win money.

When will the inipi and sun dance and yuwipi songs start to be used for powwows? makes you wonder.

[ntownn8ive]

The orgins of the chicken dance is heavily disputed in Indian Country. Most likely, each tribe had a rendition of the dance or even a society. What is true, this form of dance has been intertribal since the turn of the century. Check out some of the historical pictures from the Northwest, Northern Canada, the Great Plains; the dress is pecularily the same: yoke, short breechcloth, porky headress, bell drops, feather-bunch bustle, etc. Society dancers? Hopefully not at powwows. True society members have outfits, headresses, pipes, lodges, bundles and caretakers. These are only brought out around Sundance time and are not open the public for view, display or show and definetly not competition. If anyone dancing at a powwow says that they are a society dancer and the regalia they are in is from a society, they are a friggin fake. As far as the history of the DND, I like the story; it was the same story that all of us singers from the NW were told upon learning the song. To go back a little further in NP history, the dress, tipis, beadwork, have the appearance of being "trans-montane", meaning that they were obtained from the other side of the mountian. The NP have maintained to be the link between the Plateau and Great Plains for centuries, thus, dress, song, dance, lodges and horses resembling that of their Great Plains neighbors. The prairie chicken is a humble winged being, hence the dancer depicting this in every sense: no flashy, bright colors, no eagle feathers, very humble and pitiful. All the chicken dancer has are struts, steps and attitude to court their mate. This is not a dance of battle or war; it is for the young men, youthful and energetic, thus excluding itself from the right to wear eagle feathers, dance to Veteran songs or wear bright colors. The Duck-n-Dive? Not for the humble, horny prairie chicken I say!

[contemptradish]

So the Crees came up with this song to honor the Nez Perce? Am I understanding correctly?

[ntownn8ive]

Read it again my Indian from Indiana

[contemptradish]

"they paid for it from the Cree people..."

This is the farthest back you give ownership credit for the song style, right? According to what you've written, this means the Crees had it first.

"calvery soldiers"

I hate to do this but PLEASE(!!) learn how to spell the word correctly. US soldiers were in the cavalry. Calvary is the name of the hill where Jesus was crucified.

"Those canon shots fired on the Nez Perce warriors in the 1877 Battle of Bighole is represented in that Duck and dive song. That song commemorates that battle and the time of hardship for the Nez Perce.

Here we go with the religious talk again. A canon is an eccelsiastical doctrine or law... or did you mean caNNon??
So still after reading this, you don't say who made the song. If I'm not understanding what you said, please just tell me what you mean, b/c I don't get it then.

All in good fun
Thanks!

that is all

[ntownn8ive]

HB was saying that the Crows paid the Crees the right to chicken dance....

[ntownn8ive]

Personally, I don't know who made the song...the Nez Perce have one, the Crows have one, anyone else??

Should it be used for chicken dancers? Some people including myself and HB do not think so.

Hooh Kairz about hiz spelling, and what do you mean "religious talk". I don't know where you're from, but you don't rep the NW, that's fo' sho'. HB's elders felt that it was important to pass down the story of this battle and this song generation after generation so that their people would know their history. Like I said, this was the same story that was told to me upon learning the duck and dive song years ago. This story was passed down so that we would sing, and remember and honor, not scrutinize. I'm tellin' you....this maybe a fun place to talk about PWz and all in good fun, but you find yourself amist the realm of real nativez. We all have something to share and contribute, we all have respect and honor for the power of song and dance. What's your purpose?

[Wakalapi]

By "religious talk" I think he was trying to make a pun out of the accidental misspelling of "cavalry" as "Calvary" and "cannon" as "canon". But it flew right under foot. I agree wholeheartedly that it is important for people to know the history of the Duck-n-Dive, even know the various accepted versions, especially if they would ever sing it or dance to it.


BTW I was at the Coeur D'Alene Casino Powwow last March and Mr. Sijohn (CDA elder) announced the formation of a new Plateau Chicken Dance Society. I never followed up on finding out anything more about it, though.

[WhoMe]

Question?


The Duck and Dive dance and the song that accompanies it have great significance to the Nez Perce'. It is said the Crow also have 3 songs with a similar story to accompany these songs, as the Nez Perce'.

There is great debate over when, where and who sings these songs since they they are "tribal proprietary," meaning they belong to these tribes and are part of their oral history.

What if a song were composed to render in place of the duck and dive with similar beats?


Would this be disrespectful to the Nez Perce'? Would it be mocking the song that commorates of the 1877 Bighole Valley Battle and cannon fire?

Or would it be okay, since it does not have the same meaning as the actual song?


Whatcha' think?

[kneegrow_native]

What if a song were composed to render in place of the duck and dive with similar beats?


Would this be disrespectful to the Nez Perce'? Would it be mocking the song that commorates of the 1877 Bighole Valley Battle and cannon fire?

Or would it be okay, since it does not have the same meaning as the actual song?


Whatcha' think?

A friend of mine made up his own Duck -n- Dive song with the reasoning that he was tired of hearing and singing the same two songs.

Speaking for myself, I told him that it just didn't feel right. This song has a real special meaning, and to start whoring out the style like that just to accomodate a "hip" pow-wow crowd would be disrespectful. Especially considering that I have never, ever, ever, ever heard any of my elders even suggest, "hey guys, we need a new Duck -n- Dive."

But back to the original subject, I have never liked Duck -n- Dive being used for Prairie Chicken.

[sookout sh'nob]

One of the elders around here once gave a long speech about the duck and dive and it's history - he said it was stolen and we have no right to do it, but we were gunna do it anyhow. Then they danced - heh. It just don't get much funnier than that.

You know though, those songs I really like for Prairie Chicken Dancing are the ones that shake or ruffle for a little bit,when you do that shuffling charge step. Then they either double beat it or straight beat it, I forget the order - but they do all three of those beats.

Man those are some good songs. I wish I could hear them more.

edit: I also thought that a lot of good trick songs could scratch your duck and dive itch without having to deal with any of these thorny issues of morality and respect. Just sing that trick song for 'em! Mii sa gegit sa go.

[ntownn8ive]

This past weekend this one drum group jammed out their rendition of the duck-n-dive. The song wasn't bad and I'm sure their intentions were good, but they jammed it for the teen boy's tradish category. That just goes back to using the appropriate song for the appropriate occassion or persons. No one can stop anyone from bringing out a new song, apparently it is already being done, but at least reserve the song for Veterans.

Yet and still: prairie chickens and duck-n-dive- NO

[WhoMe]

This past weekend this one drum group jammed out their rendition of the duck-n-dive. The song wasn't bad and I'm sure their intentions were good, but they jammed it for the teen boy's tradish category. That just goes back to using the appropriate song for the appropriate occassion or persons. No one can stop anyone from bringing out a new song, apparently it is already being done, but at least reserve the song for Veterans.

Yet and still: prairie chickens and duck-n-dive- NO

ntown,

The reason I asked the question is that I have made a duck-and-dive song.

It has not been sung at a powwow just yet. I am wanting to be cautious and not offend.

I sing with a southern drum and normally we dont' sing for northern categories unless we are in the NE U.S., NW U.S., northern plains or Canada. When we do attend northern powwows, we sing whatever comes our way in drum order.

Again, I sing with a southern drum.

But, I have composed a song for each northern category just in case we are ever called upon.

So far we have been called upon to render: a chicken dance song, a double-step, a jingle dress side-step, jingle dress straight song, sneak up, owl dance, shawl straight song and crow hop.

Because we have not wanted to offend anyone, we have used our own compositions.

[oldstylechicken]

well i think that the duck 'n' dive should be used only for the appropriate dance and not for the chicken dance, where i''m from we don't use the duck 'n' dive. We mostly use straight, trick, and shake songs for our chicken dancers in blackfoot country.