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the Duck and Dive is not a chicken dance song

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  • #16
    Originally posted by WhoMe
    So far we have been called upon to render: a chicken dance song, a double-step, a jingle dress side-step, jingle dress straight song, sneak up, owl dance, shawl straight song and crow hop.

    Because we have not wanted to offend anyone, we have used our own compositions.
    Who-me....I have been taught that it is more than just acceptable to sing the old double-beat and duck n dive songs. In Fact, I was taught that it's dissrespectful to sing newly composed songs because those old songs have so much behind them. Even the side-steps, yes you can make new ones, but the older ones are still sung by many groups.

    Its nice to know that there is a southern drum who is prepared for anything! It always crazy at a powwow in okla. when the center drum/head singer has to sing for a northern category.
    www.myspace.com/powwowlicious

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    • #17
      As we travel and share songs and dances as we have for the past thousand years, it is inevitable, yet, honorable that everything has truly evolved to be intertribal. So, honor the chicken dance; sing the appropriate songs. Honor the Veterans and sing them the appropriate songs. Honor those that have welcomed you as their guest; share your songs with them and let them share theirs with you. If the Creator has given you the gift of composing songs, honor the Creator by singing them..........but quit singing the DND for inappropriate categories and dances!!
      Last edited by ntownn8ive; 07-19-2006, 02:33 PM. Reason: oops

      ...that's so true....so, so true...

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      • #18
        When I lived out in the Pacific NW I always heard the DnD used for Men's Traditional, and the Chicken Dancers contesting in the category would dance to it, but mostly the Chicken Dancers/Round Bustle got their own songs, rarely did I see the DnD used for a Chicken song.

        When I got back home (Ohio... I know, I know) I've heard the DnD used as an intertribal, grass dance and about everything else... and mostly sung wrong. The way I was taught is the DnD should always be sung 4 times with a tail, I've respected the men that taught me by always singing it that way... as for "new" duck and dives... I would never sing them... would be to me like singing a new Happy Dance song when there should only be one (if you don't know what the Happy Dance is, check out Wellpinit or Riverfront... it's a Spokane tribal song) there are certein songs that should be left alone in my opinion, and the DnD to me is one of those.

        Just my 49 cents worth!

        Paselo
        I became a singer because I love to sing... and to feed my addiction to cough drops!

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        • #19
          What I'd like to know.......what's wrong with passing a song? Me being an "oldster" I'm seeing that being done less and less anymore. If the committee hired a Northern drum as host and wants other songs sung............. let em hire a Southern drum to do em. Is it a matter of money or what? It just really does not make sense to me. I wouldn't hire a Baptist minister if I wanted last rites said for my dad. I wouldn't care if he could write his version of em or not.

          What's wrong with teaching our younger ones this is our style and we're sticking to it? I really worry what things will be like in another 25 yrs....... 50 yrs........ etc. Anyone that has painted with oils knows that when you keep adding and changing and rearranging that after awhile you make the paint what they call "mud". It's all mixed up and you can't tell what colors were ever in it. That's how I see the powwows going.
          "We see it as a desecration not only of a mountain but of our way of life. This is a genocidal issue to us. If they kill this mountain, they kill our way of life." ~Debra White Plume

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          • #20
            Growing up on the Spokane Rez in Washington, I listened at many pow-wows as my elders got up and spoke about how we used to chicken dance and that this style once died out almost completely. Then my uncle helped bring it back because he felt it was time for this dance to once again continue and now even living in Ohio I am seeing these people try to chicken dance yet no one over here seems to really know the significance behind the dance or what are the appropiate songs to sing for them.

            As far as the duck and dive goes, I get extremely upset when I see this song being abused and disrespected by being sung for the wrong reasons and that there are people who think it is perfectly acceptable to replace this song with their own versions. Listening to my elders the story I was told at many pow-wows was that there was only one duck and dive and that this song is reserved for only the Men's Tradish. It was not to be used for fancy, grass, inter-tribals, or any other catagory. Over here in Ohio I especially get upset because they do not take the time to understand how important this song is to the people of the Pacific NW. It makes my heart sad to see how it has been corrupted and abused when I remember growing up hearing this song talked about and sung with the utmost respect and humility. In fact people have even seemed to stop standing in honor of this song when it is sung.

            If my words are offensive I apologize but my heart wouldn't let me sit and be silent anymore. These are just my feelings on this subject and on the song that I hold in the utmost respect and regard.
            Abs of Frybread and Buns of Commodity Cheese

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            • #21
              Nez Perce people - I'm telling you guys...rein this in or it'll get out of hand...its actually already out of hand, and I fear you guys may quickly loose control over this song and dance.

              Here in the east, I've already heard three different newly composed Duck N' Dive songs. At first I thought they were just screwing the song up, but when I inquired about it was told it was a new composition. So, there ya go.
              I think everyone on this rez is addicted to Harry Potter...lol...

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              • #22
                Singerdad... I could not agree with you more!

                I've heard all sorts of stories about the song since I came back east, and 95% of them wrong... way I was taught, there shouldn't be any more duck and dives composed there is ONE... no more, if you think you you have the right to recompose it, you better ask the nez perce elders, and I hope they say no!!!

                There are too many songs out there that are traditional to specific nations that are rapidly being lost because some singers/composers feel they are cool enough to compose new songs to replace some of these songs without taking the time to learn what they are about, or the history of the songs they feel they have a right to replace with their new compositions... there are some songs that should be LEFT ALONE, and respected for what they are and the story behind it.

                Just my opinion.

                Paselo
                I became a singer because I love to sing... and to feed my addiction to cough drops!

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                • #23
                  This song to me, is and has always been a Veterans Song. And no one else should dance to it unless your a Veteran.
                  sigpic
                  R.I.P. my Bros from the 1st MAR DIV, 3rd MAR DIV, 25th I.D., 10th MTN DIV, V Corps, 170th IBCT who gave their lives in the Cold War, Marines we lost in Korea during Team Spirit '89 & Okinawa '89- bodies never recovered, Panama, 1st Gulf War, Somalia, Afghanistan, Iraq...





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                  • #24
                    Amen SoldierBoy....I whole heartedly agree with you.
                    Abs of Frybread and Buns of Commodity Cheese

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                    • #25
                      This past weekend at Julyamsh a guy named Nakia Williamson, Nez Perce was speaking for the head man dancer special, another Nez Perce Indian. One of the songs used was the Duck N Dive.

                      Before the song Nakia broke it down for everyone. I won't even try to restate what he said there because there is no way I could do it justice. He really impressed the hell out of me with what he had to say, by breaking down to the moment, the history of the song and how it used to be danced and when it was danced.
                      It is so sad that a family can torn apart by something as simple as a wild pack of dogs.

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                      • #26
                        He said pretty much the same thing that HB said in the first post, about the song commemorating the 1877 Battle at Bighole...

                        He speaks pretty good Niimiipu, too

                        Good words, good words, IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiii

                        ...that's so true....so, so true...

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by RedShield
                          I've heard all sorts of stories about the song since I came back east, and 95% of them wrong... way I was taught, there shouldn't be any more duck and dives composed there is ONE... no more, if you think you you have the right to recompose it, you better ask the nez perce elders, and I hope they say no!!!
                          Red shield- FYI there are at least 3 original duck n dive songs. Two are very common, the third doesnt get sung that much
                          www.myspace.com/powwowlicious

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by 1badazzndn
                            Red shield- FYI there are at least 3 original duck n dive songs. Two are very common, the third doesnt get sung that much

                            If there are 3 then, what can you tell me of the other two... What is the story behind them, the significance..? If you know of these songs and sing them you should know the history of them and explain who passed them to you. Songs get passed around haphazardly nowadays it is better to know these things than get it second hand from another that got it from a tape recorder.
                            There are a number of songs that make there way around. it is up to the people to not abuse them. For example, There is another Nez Perce Song that has made it's way down to the east. but the interesting thing about this was that group that sung that song explained it was passed to members of thier family in the late 1800's from the Nez Perce durring the occupation of Indians at the Okalhoma concentration camps. but that is another story, for another time.
                            That is how you keep your traditions alive, and keep them from getting thrown into a melting pot of one color. Identity is the strongest thing that we can have.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by heartbeat
                              If there are 3 then, what can you tell me of the other two... What is the story behind them, the significance..? If you know of these songs and sing them you should know the history of them and explain who passed them to you. Songs get passed around haphazardly nowadays it is better to know these things than get it second hand from another that got it from a tape recorder.
                              There are a number of songs that make there way around. it is up to the people to not abuse them. For example, There is another Nez Perce Song that has made it's way down to the east. but the interesting thing about this was that group that sung that song explained it was passed to members of thier family in the late 1800's from the Nez Perce durring the occupation of Indians at the Okalhoma concentration camps. but that is another story, for another time.
                              That is how you keep your traditions alive, and keep them from getting thrown into a melting pot of one color. Identity is the strongest thing that we can have.
                              The first one, isnt sung with down beats, just the two dnd beats in each half of the verse

                              The second one is sang straight on the first half of each verse. On the second half of each verse, there are four down beats before the first dnd beat.

                              The third is rare-Ive only heard it once or twice. Passed along by Sarge Old Horn.

                              Sorry this sounds crazy, if i had a way to record, I would

                              From what I was told, all three of these versions share the same root and go back to that historic battle.
                              www.myspace.com/powwowlicious

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                              • #30
                                duck and dive

                                a story was once told to me from an elder about the duck and dive song.

                                he told how the song (nimipu/palus version) came to be used for purposes other than for honoring veterans.

                                the story is about a young man who returned from war,which war he didn't specify,i am assuming it was WWI or WWII or possibly the korean conflict. anyway upon his return to his home, (i believe he may have been talking about nix yow ii or lapwai since the elder grew up in both locales) the people had a celebration to honor the return of one of their warriors. a dinner was held in his honor and a dance was also held.

                                as the dance was going on this young man put on his outfit,which was the old style round bustle of the people around here. as the young man came out to dance the singers i believe wanted to pay respect to this young man as he was a veteran and they sang the duck and dive to honor him as a veteran. and the elder says it seems to him that ever since then that the duck and dive has been used in association with the men dancing and kind of adapted its way into todays pow wow as a mens traditional (warriors?)song (not all men dancing have served in the armed forces,should they be honored with this song???).

                                the elder also expressed to me that he feels the song should not be mistakingly used for a chicken dance song. our people have a chicken dance song that we dance to,the elders call it the combination song,this song has all the beats(shake,straight,"crow"hop).now thats a song the person^ who mentioned a song with a mixture of beats, would like!!!

                                it cannot be said that only one tribe has "THE" duck and dive, as almost each northern plains(crow,cree,blackfeet,hidatsa) and plateau (nimipu,palus,yakama,umatilla,warm springs,spokane,CDA) tribe have a duck and dive and that each song has its own story of origin.

                                but all in all as an old style round bustle/chicken dancer i myself believe that the NW rendition of the duck and dive should not be used in the chicken dance specials or catergories. also if the other tribes who take care of a duck and dive song that is used to honor veterans, i feel that their duck and dive song should not be used either.

                                i wonder what it would be like if all the dancers who feel this way in their hearts truely,didn't dance to this song during the contest, but remained standing at the outer edge of the dance floor, to pay respect to the great ones who deserve the respect of this song. what might the judges think anyway( i can only imagine)????? i thought about that a time or two during a chicken dance special. if ya watch,many if not most of the dancers don't know how to dance the NW duck and dive style anyway, to my elders and myself that is disrespectful, but each dancer is interpreting "HIS WAR" story.

                                maybe many of you who are acquainted with people who sponsor chicken dance specials,or pow wow committees that have a chicken dance catergory you may want to express to them that many people feel that these songs should not be used for that catergory or special.

                                like everyone here says give respect to the people who gave us these freedoms to gather and celebrate, and sing these songs and dance these dances. the most respected of all, our people who first met and welcomed the whiteman, who in turn brought war upon our people.these people who gave their lives without provocation, these are the real veterans. no disrespect to our veterans of the last century or this century whatso ever!!!

                                take care everyone, may the creator watch over you and your families, be strong, keep it real~Kermit.

                                yox kalo,inim himyuma ka lawtiwama. thats how ya say it!!!!!!!

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                                • kneegrow_native
                                  Duck and Dive
                                  by kneegrow_native
                                  I was wondering what people thought of the use of duck and dive songs.

                                  Recently I have seen duck and dives used an awful lot for Chicken Dance. I thought that the chicken dance paid homage the prairie chicken and that the duck and dives tells the story of battles (for example some elders...
                                  09-10-2002, 05:33 PM
                                • _wuliechsin_
                                  Dose anyone know the History on the Duck n' Dive?
                                  by _wuliechsin_
                                  Dose anybody know the history on the Duck n' Dive? Were
                                  it came from, how it started ect.. please let me know. Hoka!!
                                  11-07-2005, 10:04 AM
                                • CHEROSAGE
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                                  by CHEROSAGE
                                  I would like someone to explain to this ignorant straight the differences between Duck/Dive, Chicken dance, Crow hop. I know what a Ponie stealing song is and a Trot. The other thread got rapped up in the old rez vs non-rez war.
                                  09-23-2002, 02:21 AM
                                • vince_j
                                  Dine' bashing
                                  by vince_j
                                  This post is in reference to comments made in the "what is with navajo's and southern style dancing" thread.

                                  At the Gathering back maybe 9 years ago, Blacklodge and Cozad were both present. During one of the intertribal dances, Blacklodge sang a well-known Cozad song. They...
                                  10-17-2005, 04:51 PM
                                • tallbuck
                                  Duck and Dive
                                  by tallbuck
                                  I am just wondering....When dancing to a Duck and Dive song, what move do you perform on the duck and then on the dive?

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                                  Thanks
                                  05-14-2008, 12:29 PM

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