Mustang Songs

[powwower]

Park:

I have to disagree. Seems the one year I went, they had other visitors who were dancin' with "the Clan."

Individuals placed money in front of That Indian Announcer who was the Comanche Tribal Chairman at the time. I think his last name is Coffee or tea or some kind of hot drink.

The Kiowa Gourd Clan also gave this dance to the Otos and I heard there were several there who were from this tribe participating.

I also heard them call up a man named Henry Collins (Ponca). He came up in full gourd dance regalia to someone's give away. Seems to me he was/is some big time modern song composer.

Just some observations from someone who has his ears and eyes open. Sorry I had to open my mouth this time.

[park]

Don't let the (few) exceptions swallow the rule. My point is: I know plenty o' people who thought they could saunter in downtown, much to their surprise and disappointment (not to mention humiliation). I'm not opposed to others making honest mistakes or even thinking they're more than they are, so long as they learn the lesson and move on.

[powwower]

Park:

Point well taken. Check out my new subject under "General."

[Beth]

FYI
Henry Collins has been around for a long time composing songs. You probably sing them and don't know it. I personally like
a prayer song he made.

[okla49er]

henry collins made a prayer song? when did he make that?

[Beth]

Quite awhile back. I would say over 15 years.

[SouthernSinger]

I hit a home run in the 4th Grade.

Singer

[Louis Garcia]

Pow-wower:
I don't understand why southern people think that the Gourd Dance originated with the Kiowa. That of course is a posiblity but every Plains tribe had the Gourd Dance.

Every warrior society danced in this Gourd style.
It was the HeYuska (Dakota Spelling)(Ponca/ Omaha)style of dancing in which the porcupine headdress (Roach / Wapesa)and bustles (Kangih^a)which evolved into the pow-wow we have today.
Read the anthropolical papers that talk about these warrior societies. Remember the early researchers were not interested in songs and dance styles. Just how the society functioned.
LouieG :)

[okla49er]

to beth i know henry made a memorial song but not a PRAYER song.
and to garcia what do bustles and roaches have to do with the topic at hand?

[park]

Originally posted by Louis Garcia:
[QB]Pow-wower:
I don't understand why southern people think that the Gourd Dance originated with the Kiowa. That of course is a posiblity but every Plains tribe had the Gourd Dance.

I respectfully disagree. I don't understand why northern (and some southern)people think that all forms of dancing originated with the Omaha dance. The gourd dance does not have, and never had, anything to do with the roach and bustle (i.e. the Heluska and its various manifestations and spellings). Obviously, the O-ho-mah relates to that, but not the tai-pe-go.

I don't think every Plains tribe had a gourd dance. I think it could be said most (if not all) Plains tribes had warrior societies, but I don't know enough of other Plains tribes, much less speak for them.
For example, many Ponca I know admit they just picked gourd dancing up over the years and don't have a historical basis for it.

In my mind, it's apples to oranges and devalues the meaning, significance, and history of the tai-pe-go for the Kiowa (as well as its other forms in other tribes).

[CEM]

Recently a Quapaw/Ponca women told me that the Ponca had a gourd dance a long time ago, but it wasn't the same as gourd dancing is now. She admitted she wasn't sure why it was done in the old way. Now the Ponca gourd dance like everyone else, which is the way the Kiowas do it.

CEM

[MrRuminator]

Originally posted by okla49er:
[QB]i know henry made a memorial song but not a PRAYER song.
/QB]

You're right. He made it in memory of his father, Melvin Collins, Sr. and the wonderful times they spent together.
He says "Father, We remember you."

[Louis Garcia]

Hello everyone:
Sorry I have gotten back sooner than this.
Looks like I opened a can of worms.
1) the reason I mentioned bustles and roaches was to point out that all the warrior societies (well perhaps not all, say 99%)used what is called the Gourd dance as their society dance. It was only the Grass Dance Society that used the regalia that is used in the pow-wow today.
I forgot to mention the big drum too.
The warriors societies seemed to use 4 hand drums. The Fox Society at Ft. Berthold, (Nueta and Hidatsa) still use the hand drums.
2) The Kiowa once lived up north and so possibly are the originators of the Gourd Dance.
I hope I didn't upset anyone.
LouieG
Ft. Totten, ND
:p

[Two-cents1]

I mentioned this site to one of the original members of the revived society and he checked this thread out. He also mentioned, like what LGarcia just said, that the Kiowas originally came from the north, so pwr's comment on the strangeness of northern singers singing gourd dance songs with Zotigh was not so strange to him. He also noted that most of the other plains tribes that gourd dance, got the dance from the Comanches, who got it from the Kiowas. He was also there back in the early to mid-seventies when the dance was given to the Poncas, and even named alot of the families that were there.

Park was correct when he said you had to be Kiowa to dance in the afternoons there. They say "No in-laws", meaning other tribes that are married in, but they say it in Kiowa. There are a few exceptions for some fortunate individuals where Gourd Clan members have made a way for them to dance down there, but the general rule is that you have to be Kiowa to dance there.

Powwower, expect a PM from me.

[R I Whiteside]

Mustang Songs are used with Brush Dance when bringing in the drum. Buffalo dance songs end the dance session.