Sumo

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Questionable website

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    how bout crooked snake, gorilla finger..........
    "Go Make Sweat!!!" -Sonny Kennedy- 2003


    don't get mad at me im just a critic

    Comment


    • #32
      S'Hawk you have raised some very good (?)s. I will address one of your (?)s. I have been Gourd Dancing since the late '70s. I was stationed at Ft. Sill OK, I have some family down there. I was allowed to dance in and around Lawton. I even was allowed to dance in Carnegie when ever I was able to get there. I met and became friend by some elders, I was very honored. I danced with the CIVA many times, etc.. I was asked to belong to the Quapaw Intertribal Gourd Dance Society. I have been stationed at Ft. Sill several times, each time I have been allowed to dance with my friends and never have I been asked not to dance. I contribute this to the fact that I try to do things as I was taught years ago.

      I'm not sure about these sanctioning bodies, but I believe that if a Headsman allows you to dance with him and or gives a group permission to take this dance home then it should be OK. As I have stated before, this dance has spread so far around the US and world it is not able to be brought back to only the Kiowas. The arguement that these "non-sanctioned" Gourd Dancers shouldn't dance is not even a topic anymore. I do believe that if and since the Kiowas are given the credit for the dance preservation and we aknowledge the origin this should be good enough for now. Try to keep the old ways as best as we can, I say this since many of us are NOT Kiowas. I have danced in the Black Moccasin dance and I'm not Apache though I am married to one. This does not make me Apache.

      Does this help any, S'Hawk?
      BOB

      Comment


      • #33
        Hey WhoMe.. pass the popcorn.. stop hoggin it all..lol this thread is getting goot.... :D

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by CHEROSAGE
          Does this help any, S'Hawk?

          Osiyo Cherosage,

          I appreciate the time you took to respond to my question, and also appreciate your honesty in your answer. That was exactly what I was looking for. I was honored as a new dancer recently, coincidentally enough by the Osage Gourd and was told by their headman that I could dance with them at any time without invitation. In my travels I've been over to Anadarko several times and have met and become friends with several good Kiowa people. I don't believe I will have any problem holding to the old ways. I see you live relatively close to me, maybe we'll cross paths somewhere this year. Thanks again Bob, wa-do.


          Do-na-da-go-hv-i
          Bill

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by CloudN9ne
            how bout crooked snake, gorilla finger..........
            You forgot "Chicken Neck".
            Kio-Manche
            Oklahoma Proud!!!

            Comment


            • #36
              Mr Short

              I know Mr. Short..... His frist name is Too.

              Too Short... I think he is Blackfoot tribe... and he is extra Scared!!!


              He is bonafied..... Know to sanction a motha [email protected]$ everywhere he goes
              Dayum I make some keen DrumSticks!!!!!!sigpic

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by streamhawk
                can you tell me exactly which gourd groups ARE sanctioned?
                Dunno. There was a thread a while back about trying to find out where each of the current gourd societies recieved the right to dance. I think it'd be interesting to see. To record.

                There are many posts by folks saying, "I don't belong to any society. I dance gourd. I honour the dance."

                It sounds right, from a non-native view.

                The native and non-native views of 'property' have always been mis-understood to eachother.

                The first non-natives to come here are said to have 'bought' Manhattan for a few beads. And, don't the non-native laugh and laugh about such a rip-off.

                Yet, at the time, the native folks were laughing at the non-natives.

                And, without explanation, the native folks here get it. The non-natives are scratching their heads.

                Land to us back then was simply there. People walked on the land. Lived on it. One would stay away from a burial area not because of the ownership of the land, but out of respect for those buried who happened to be at that location.

                How do explain....If someone came up to you and pointed at the air next to your head and said, "I'd like to buy that air from you for sixty-four glass beads." You'd think him bongos and go, "heh...okay!". Who can own the air? The air is simply there. Breathe it. Use it.

                It was bizarre to the natives of the time to have those non-native want to give them beads for something that was simply there. Use it. Live on it.

                When the non-natives put up fences, the native folks laughed. "You can't lock the land in a fence! LOL What's it gonna do? Run away?? hahahah", they thought.

                And, there has never really been understanding regarding what is 'property' even to this day.

                You see, intangibles are very real property to native people. Names are closely held within families. Non-native way, you can have many people in the same family named, "John". In most native societies, you never use the name of another living person. It belongs to that person. Sometimes, that person will give permission for someone to use their name. But, that is rare. Is that custom of name ownership misunderstood?

                Songs are closely held family property. Most drum groups will only sing certain family songs if asked to do so by one of the family members to whom the song belongs. And, sometimes, you may even see a family member stop the drum that is singing a song without permission. They are real property to native families. Is that custom of song ownership misunderstood?

                Dances are closely held tribal society property. It is simply taking, not 'honouring', when folks dance any tribe or societies or clan's dance without being invited to do so. In the least, it is impolite. The custom of dance ownership is misunderstood by many non-natives.

                These clans/society/tribal dances are ancient. Their dances have been passed on as a legacy to those to whom they belong. Sometimes, the right to dance will be given to others. That is the right of the ones who own that dance.

                From this point of view, folks simply taking the dance, Gourd or any other, without permission devalues the legacy of those who recieved the right to those dances.
                Scott Zotigh
                Kiowa Black Leggings
                Kiowa Gourd Clan
                Kiowa Tiah Piah
                Kiowa Marine Veterans
                American Indian Veterans

                Comment


                • #38
                  Thanks, Zotigh, that was well put and full of good thoughts.
                  BOB

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Dang, Zotigh. That was good. Real good.

                    Are those thoughts your property? Can I steal them?

                    Just kidding.

                    Gotta say it again. That was real good!

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Mr Short?

                      Originally posted by walela49
                      WTF?
                      1998?? I did plenty of powwowin' in Walters and Cache and Lawton 'round then...I never saw any of these folks in the real Comanche country LOL...what a crock!

                      Mr. Short???? nevahearduvhim
                      from the website....

                      The Cherokee Red Star Gourd Dance Society was sanctioned at the Spirit Powwow, State Fairgrounds, Albuquerque, New Mexico, in 1998 by Mr. Lawrence Shortman, an enrolled member of the Southern Cheyenne, a Southern Cheyenne Elder and an elder of the Southern Cheyenne Gourd Dance Society. He is a long time member of the Kiowa Black War Shield Society. Mr. Lawrence Shortman sought and received permission from the Kiowa and Southern Cheyenne to sanction the Cherokee Red Star. Mr. Harold Durr was selected as the Headman of the Society.

                      At the Gathering of Nations 2004, Bill Two Horses, a long time Gourd Dancer and an enrolled member of the Delaware Tribe of Western Oklahoma, his son Walter, and Mr. Al Bellamy, were inducted into the Society. Mr. Lawrence Shortman and Mr. Harold Durr honored Two Horses by selecting him as the Headman of the East for the Society, granting him permission to sanction Cherokee Red Star Gourd Dance Societies in the East.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        It this from the redstar website, or another more independent website with more credibility? Just curious?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by MagentaEagle
                          from the website....

                          The Cherokee Red Star Gourd Dance Society was sanctioned at the Spirit Powwow, State Fairgrounds, Albuquerque, New Mexico, in 1998 by Mr. Lawrence Shortman, an enrolled member of the Southern Cheyenne, a Southern Cheyenne Elder and an elder of the Southern Cheyenne Gourd Dance Society. He is a long time member of the Kiowa Black War Shield Society. Mr. Lawrence Shortman sought and received permission from the Kiowa and Southern Cheyenne to sanction the Cherokee Red Star. Mr. Harold Durr was selected as the Headman of the Society.

                          At the Gathering of Nations 2004, Bill Two Horses, a long time Gourd Dancer and an enrolled member of the Delaware Tribe of Western Oklahoma, his son Walter, and Mr. Al Bellamy, were inducted into the Society. Mr. Lawrence Shortman and Mr. Harold Durr honored Two Horses by selecting him as the Headman of the East for the Society, granting him permission to sanction Cherokee Red Star Gourd Dance Societies in the East.

                          Okay, now I see this website is full of BS.

                          I know Lawrence. He is S.Cheyenne. He started the War Shield Gourd Society of New Mexico (as opposed to the Kiowa Black War Shield Society). Somebody got their societies wrong as there is not a Kiowa society of that name.

                          NO KIOWAS in New Mexico, according to my informant from New Mexico, gave their permisson to "sanction" the Cherokee Red Star whatever. (There is a Kiowa connection group in Albuquerque, made up of New Mexico Kiowas).


                          "Headman of the East for the Society?"

                          Then... I'm the good witch of the North.



                          HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!!!


                          Don't laugh or I'll use my magic wand and sanction you! j/k
                          Powwows will continue to evolve in many directions. It is inevitable.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by MagentaEagle
                            He is a long time member of the Kiowa Black War Shield Society.
                            We do not have any society by that name.
                            Scott Zotigh
                            Kiowa Black Leggings
                            Kiowa Gourd Clan
                            Kiowa Tiah Piah
                            Kiowa Marine Veterans
                            American Indian Veterans

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by WhoMe
                              "Headman of the East for the Society?"

                              Then... I'm the good witch of the North.



                              HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!!!


                              Don't laugh or I'll use my magic wand and sanction you! j/k
                              OMG LOL!!!!!...I 'bout peed my pants! ROFLMAO
                              sigpic


                              See my trading post ads
                              See my photo gallery
                              See walela49's myspace page

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                I was wondering if this mythical "Mr. Short" might have been Mr. Shortman.... but, like WhoMe and freaking everyone else who's ever been to a couple of NM powwows, we all know that Lawrence would not have done what is being attributed to him.

                                Given that their website is so obviously fulla BS.... I'm thinking that these freakish hippy-trippy new-agey wannabe pseudo NDNs (of course, once again, they gotta claim to be Cherokee, dammit!) were basically taking advantage of Lawrence's very kind personality. He probably asked one or all of them to join him for a song, or stand beside him, or he gave them a dollar, and probably talked to them very nicely for a whole whopping ten minutes, and...........

                                BLAM!

                                fools think that means they got all kinda rights. BUH!

                                Ticks me off - when an elder is being polite or kind to someone, their intentions get misconstrued, abused, disrespected by freaks like these.

                                (One good note - the Kiowas got a breand freaking new society outta this whole deal! Haha! I vote Zotigh as Headman of the Black War Shield Anti-gourd-dance-theft Society.... and instead of a whip man, WhoMe can be the magic wand man..... "Get up and dance or I'll sprinkle you with fairy dust!" hahahaha.....)
                                Functionless art is simply tolerated vandalism.

                                Comment

                                Join the online community forum celebrating Native American Culture, Pow Wows, tribes, music, art, and history.

                                Loading...

                                Trending

                                Collapse

                                There are no results that meet this criteria.

                                Sidebar Ad

                                Collapse
                                Working...
                                X