Gourd Dances outside of Gourd Dance Territory

[Wojapi4Me]

A dance I'm attending this weekend in Tennessee will have gourd dancing and one I attended last month in North Carolina had a gourd dancing session. Now, the one in NC was sung by knowledgeable singers who've sung out in OK and know the protocols, and I'm not sure who's singing for Gourd Dance this weekend.

As the gourd dance continues to spread further and further away from Oklahoma, what are the "requirements" for lack of a better term for holding a gourd dance at a pow wow? I mean, do pow wow committees seek permission from the Kiowas to do this or just take it upon themselves to hold one? Is permission needed? And who has the "right" to head sing a gourd dance? Anybody with the knowledge or is special permission needed?

I'm not putting anyone down at all...I'm just curious. Thanks.

[KeenKiowaBabe4Ever]

A dance I'm attending this weekend in Tennessee will have gourd dancing and one I attended last month in North Carolina had a gourd dancing session. Now, the one in NC was sung by knowledgeable singers who've sung out in OK and know the protocols, and I'm not sure who's singing for Gourd Dance this weekend.

As the gourd dance continues to spread further and further away from Oklahoma, what are the "requirements" for lack of a better term for holding a gourd dance at a pow wow? I mean, do pow wow committees seek permission from the Kiowas to do this or just take it upon themselves to hold one? Is permission needed? And who has the "right" to head sing a gourd dance? Anybody with the knowledge or is special permission needed?

I'm not putting anyone down at all...I'm just curious. Thanks.

NOW ADAYs it seems like everyone takes from everyone. LIke my father says the origional music that we have a re songs that were made for FAMILY yet we hear them out there all over the place. It is wrong to take a song and remake it, and to take a song and sing it for something unless you have the families permiossion. I have heard plenty of times singers use songs that werent they'res, but there is noway for us to stop it, they know it is wrong but they dont care, but what if we "kiowas" sang they're songs? yes it would be havic, and they would not like it, they should stop but they wont and that is a problem that the ndn's have now a days. wow!!! and we always wonder why the whites are getting away with everything!! Same thing~!!

[Kiwehnzii]

Michigan is basically Anishinaabe territory. There will be gourd dancing in Owwoso, Michigan at a powwow. I never went there, never will probly as I have been warned that this powwow is "sanctioned" by hobbyists. I too am interested how the gourd dancers of Oklahoma feel about this.

For the record, I personally think gourd dancing should be held only where it began.

[chazziff]

soo what would be the concensus on a kiowa (fully enrolled member) holding a gourd dance up in say ... canada? and he sang his late father's songs? and danced with other family members from the apache/lawton, ok area? just to teach his children of this part of his kiowa heritage?

[WhoMe]

Michigan is basically Anishinaabe territory. There will be gourd dancing in Owwoso, Michigan at a powwow. I never went there, never will probly as I have been warned that this powwow is "sanctioned" by hobbyists. I too am interested how the gourd dancers of Oklahoma feel about this.

For the record, I personally think gourd dancing should be held only where it began.

Kiwehnzii,

Hobbyists indulge in "their hobby." To me a hobby is a game. If the rules are changed or something major is not quite right, it is simply a game.

Some hobbyists take their game seriously. Some don't and "play" without learning the rules, since it's just - a game.

In both cases, "it isn't an innate cultural trait."

Hobbyists' are not prone to just Indians as a hobby. They study and immerse themselves in Medieval cultures, Mountainmen, Wild Westerners, Civil War.... etc.etc ETC.

All I can say is when "hobbyists" gourd dance on their own....

My elders don't like it.

[Wojapi4Me]

All I can say is when "hobbyists" gourd dance on their own....My elders don't like it.

Well, that makes perfect sense and something I've always sort of felt was the case. Ok, that being said, what about a pow wow that does have Indians there as well, but maybe they aren't Kiowa or maybe the singers aren't Kiowa? I guess what I'm looking for here is - is it ok to have gourd dances at pow wows outside of Oklahoma or outside of "Kiowa influence"?

[WhoMe]

Well, that makes perfect sense and something I've always sort of felt was the case. Ok, that being said, what about a pow wow that does have Indians there as well, but maybe they aren't Kiowa or maybe the singers aren't Kiowa? I guess what I'm looking for here is - is it ok to have gourd dances at pow wows outside of Oklahoma or outside of "Kiowa influence"?

SingerD,

I am not the one to say. I am not a headsman.


All I can say for sure is that "it hurts the very soul of many elders who witness many changes done outside of gourd dance territory."

[LSS]

From my perspective....

I am finding that more and more people are venturing out away from home. This includes all Native people. And I think sometimes they enjoy having a piece of home whenever they can get it. So, what happens when a group outside of Oklahoma, not Kiowa, is requested to sing Gourd? Where does the responsibility lie? Now, I'm not trying to point the finger here! Part of me think that the singer would hate to be rude and say "no" especially if he knows his stuff. But he's not Kiowa!

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

From what I've seen, as a southern style singer outside of Oklahoma and not being of lineage from Oklahoma, is that people are sometimes ridiculed if they don't know, or comes across as if they don't know, the "southern way" if they call themselves southern.



But what do they do?

[WhoMe]

... So, what happens when a group outside of Oklahoma, not Kiowa, is requested to sing Gourd? .....

LSS,

This is funny.

I know LSS would go ahead and sing?

[LSS]

LSS,

This is funny.

I know LSS would go ahead and sing?

B/C I love southern singing?

Or B/C of who I sing with?

[WhoMe]

B/C I love southern singing?

Or B/C of who I sing with?

LSS,

Neither.


How come you went ahead and sang?


(it's a loaded question. Your answer will be the answer to this post).

[LSS]

one word......

LSS,

Neither.


How come you went ahead and sang?


(it's a loaded question. Your answer will be the answer to this post).

E X P E C T A T I O N S

[Wojapi4Me]

E X P E C T A T I O N S

Expectations that to be a southern singer you have to sing Gourd Dance?

Granted, just about all southern plains tribes now gourd dance, but keep in mind this wasn't always true...heck, it probably wasn't even true just 50 years ago.

There are formal War Dance songs and intertribal pow wow songs, and I would think that your expectations would be based on your knowledge of those songs as opposed to gourd dance songs...am I wrong?

I'm a northern guy looking in at this so maybe I am totally wrong and maybe southern singers today are expected to know gourd songs? Is this true?

[Kiwehnzii]

Ojibwe inter-tribal singers are not required to know Midewiwin ceremonial songs. This too is the case of "big drum society" songs. There too is "rain dance" songs. In fact, it is frowned upon to sing "ceremonial" songs at a powwow. These are to be kept guarded. Very, very rarely are any ceremonial songs brought into public, if ever.

Please, don't ask me more about "those" songs.

Are gourd dance songs private?

[WhoMe]

.....Are gourd dance songs private?

Many gourd dance songs belong to individuals, families and chiefs.

At many intertribal powwows, gourd dance songs are sung by singers who have no clue as to their ownership.

In Kiowa country, when a song is sung that belongs to someone or a family, it may cause family members to have to have an impromptu giveaway.

This often happens when someone who is not Kiowa sits in with Kiowa gourd dance singers.