Regalia Advice

[BSABeads]

I know that by responding I'm just going to get burned again, but what the heck. When I said that it's just going to happen anyway, I wasn't being personally arrogant, I was just discussing the arrogance that was already addressed in they_drag_him's post:

it would be nice if the boy scouts would just disappear and vanish without a trace but since you white folk are too numerous, it won't happen.

It's unfortunate but true... even if I decided not to help them and tried to discourage them, they would more than likely ignore me and find someone else to help. Or, worse yet, not find someone else to help and just "play Indian" as Dance 42 said. My intent, like I said, was to be the placeholder that stepped in to try to teach them correctly, rather than let someone else do it who isn't as concerned about it. But you can interpret it however you wish.

If you say that going traditional is inappropriate, then I can bring that message back to the team and try to encourage them to explore other options. But honestly, to say that they shouldn't be learning about or studying your culture because they aren't a part of it? Does that mean that my wife should only have studied Irish and Polish history in school and nothing else? Does the fact that she studied Spanish, ate Spanish food, learned Spanish dances and songs, make her arrogant and exploitative? I'd just like to point out that Dance 42 was extremely helpful in pointing out the specific problem he had with our situation, rather than just calling me a white rapist for being interested in someone else's culture.

Farewell, cruel board.

[Canada#1]

Farewell, cruel board.

This board is less than cruel,

You ask a stupid question, then act like a "hobbiest"

Then you are going to get a stupid answer, capiche?

[eap7]

My intent, like I said, was to be the placeholder that stepped in to try to teach them correctly, rather than let someone else do it who isn't as concerned about it.

I appreciate that you are trying to do something "right", but sometimes the "right" way is to not do it at all.

But honestly, to say that they shouldn't be learning about or studying your culture because they aren't a part of it? Does that mean that my wife should only have studied Irish and Polish history in school and nothing else? Does the fact that she studied Spanish, ate Spanish food, learned Spanish dances and songs, make her arrogant and exploitative?

You are comparing apples and oranges. You ask about STUDYING and LEARNING ABOUT. Our powwow dances, particularly traditional dances, are not the same as reading a book. They are not part of history for you to learn. They are a dynamic, very real and meaningful part of many Indians' lives. You mention your wife studied Spanish, ate food, and learned Spanish dances. I'm going to assume she studied abroad in Spain. First of all, there is a huge difference with doing something in the culture and community where it is from and doing it your own way, whether or not that culture or community likes it. This is what the OA does- throws its own OA powwows. I have no issue with non-Indian people dancing who have learned the right way, from Indian people, at Indian powwows, just like when someone studies abroad and learned about culture first hand. You are not even asking for first hand culture. You want a boiled down, cheaper version of the Northern Traditional dance to show to some kids who don't even understand it. Do you realize that when a young Indian person wants to dance, he does not make his own dance outfit just like that? Families, friends, community members often gift him things to help him along the way. Powwow dancing is not an individualized thing. Any powwow dancer is representing, and a part of, his family, his clan, his tribe, and his community.

Moving on...when I go to eat at a Spanish restaurant, I don't dress up like a Spaniard, particularly if I cannot afford to actually have an authentic Spanish outfit. I actually do speak fluent Spanish, as well as conversational Portuguese and Cape Verdean Creole. But I would NEVER want to "dress up" like these cultures, let alone teach it to other people not in these cultures, because I realize that understanding a language, appreciating food, or knowing dances is different than actually living it in my daily life. I can't decide to dress up like a Spaniard on the weekend for fun. Do you see how offensive that is? Dressing up like an Indian is related to the mascot issue and to Indian Halloween costumes. They mock us, they make us into people stuck in the past, they make us seem child-like, they make us imaginary, as if we are the same as Spider-Man, the beautiful princess, the witch, the ghost, and other costumes. These costumes have no meaning except to amuse, and the people wearing them have no connection to them except that they thought it would be cool. Our dance outfits, and our powwow dances, have a lot of meaning and that's not something you can get just from the OA.

I hope you do not think I am being part of this "cruel board". There is nothing in this post that I would not say to your face, and nothing that I haven't already said to OA members' faces. I also wanted to say that I hope you realize your arrogant post. Yes, it is true that there is nothing I nor any Indian here can do to "stop you". Maybe after reading these posts, however, you will see that we're not trying to stop your fun, but to EDUCATE you.

Also on a side note...I read the entirety of your posts to my roommate, who is not even Indian. She is Asian. She doesn't know anything about the OA or Boy Scouts, but she also thought your post was extremely arrogant. She also made the association with rape, Wojapi 4 ME...interesting you both associated that comment with violence. She also said colonization is never ending...but that's another topic...

[Wojapi4Me]

Man, BSABeads...you just don't get it huh?

First off, I never called you a "white rapist"...I said your sentence of "it's going to happen anyway" reminds me of the attitudes many rapists have.

Then, you still don't get that this is not a racial issue...at least for most here it's not. It's a respect issue. These ways take time to learn...it's not something you can learn overnight or at a meeting. I have no problems whatsoever with people dancing - whomever they may be...the more the merrier I say. But, when people come in saying things like you did, it's not only aggravating and offensive, it's laughable.

I also don't get the whole concept if trying to teach something you don't know how to do yourself. I wouldn't agree to teach a class on carpentry and then go on a carpenter's website and ask..."so, how do you put together cabinets?"

[lostsalt]

Man, BSABeads...

I also don't get the whole concept if trying to teach something you don't know how to do yourself. I wouldn't agree to teach a class on carpentry and then go on a carpenter's website and ask..."so, how do you put together cabinets?"

Doesn't that pretty much sum it all up. If you understand the leap between Cabinets and the traditional dancing, you'll understand the strong emotion involved. Remember this is not a trite thing your are wanting to do. These traditions are long standing and have been kept alive and ongoing forever.
To feel llike you are entitled to it because every other OA lodge is , doesn't make it right.
You know yourself the goofy "Crap that goes on @ those things". And there are some that have learn correctly, or are mentored by natives themselves. If you don t have the resource in place or available, dont do it.
I dont build a bustle if I dont have the resources.
I dont buy groceries if I dont have the resources.
Get my point?
BTW The internet is not a resource!

Lostsalt

[Dance 42]

Well I guess our ever so respectful BSA/OA dude ended up being just another BSA/OA dude.

so sad. I was really hoping he would be "different". Oh well maybe someday.

[Red Drum]

I'm sad to say that I was in the Boy Scouts, got my Eagle Scout, and was in the Order of the Arrow.

When I went through the OA they had a lame ceremony that was trying to be Lenape. Of course the people had on plains-style headdresses and completely ba5tardized the Lenape language and they tried to incorporate the language into the "ceremony". It was a complete embarassment for me and the people pretending, even though they were more than likely unaware of their total disrespect to an ancient, well established culture, that wasn't their own.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the Boy Scouts and the OA are a joke, and no one from the organization should say anything, especially with a sassy attitude, to the Natives of that culture. I don't care if the culture is Native American, African, Arabic, Indian, etc., saying that you are "going to find out anyway and it would be best to let me know or else", is a complete insult, and a terrible slap in the face to the culture which you are trying to RAPE. And no, I'm not afraid to say it. Even though BSABeads said that he didn't say "rape" I'm summing it up, just like Wojapi did, and saying that you are completely raping our culture and ba5tardizing it. Just like with any culture, you can't say that "today I'm going to be...Native American, Indian, Japanese, Korean, Egyptian, etc. etc."

That's just my two angry cents. And if BSABeads wants to talk like a man to a former Eagle Scout, I say bring it on, tough guy!

[_wuliechsin_]

I'm sad to say that I was in the Boy Scouts, got my Eagle Scout, and was in the Order of the Arrow............................................. ..............................That's just my two angry cents. And if BSABeads wants to talk like a man to a former Eagle Scout, I say bring it on, tough guy!

I used be in scouts too. And as an Egale scout and Vigil honor member in the OA. It makes me sad to see everything being done the BSA way and they really dont care if they do things right or not. And dont get me started on BSABeads. I dont think he would like to here what I have to say. LOL

[SuzzeQ4]

Or, worse yet, not find someone else to help and just "play Indian" as Dance 42 said. My intent, like I said, was to be the placeholder that stepped in to try to teach them correctly, rather than let someone else do it who isn't as concerned about it.

You don't get it YOU are playing Indian. Just like all the other boy scouts

[theguyfromtatooine]

Greetings. What about the people who live in other countries? I live in Turkey and have no opportunity to make a direct contact with a Native American community. How can i learn to dance?

[SuzzeQ4]

Greetings. What about the people who live in other countries? I live in Turkey and have no opportunity to make a direct contact with a Native American community. How can i learn to dance?

Since you live in Turkey I am assuming your not NDN, in which case why would you need to learn our dances? Go learn your own dances.
You know I just don;t get it, if all these non-NDN people were putting on African traditional clothes & trying to learn African dances & claim their 1/64th African ancestry they would be laughed at by actual African people & know one would think it rude of the African people for doing so.
And on this train of thought just imagine the uproar if the boy scouts went around painting themselves up to look African, making cheap replicas of their traditional clothing, danced around in an imitation of being African? ...oh but that would be raciest, so they wouldn't do that.

[waienhawi]

Learn how to dance Salsa or Foxtrot

Greetings. What about the people who live in other countries? I live in Turkey and have no opportunity to make a direct contact with a Native American community. How can i learn to dance?

You can learn to dance any way that you want as long as it's accepted by the community/country/people it originates from. Why do you need to learn how to dance our traditional dances? If we, as Native people, wanted outsiders to learn our dances, we would have offered it to the world in the form of teachings. Did you ever come across "powwow dancing 101" offered to the general public?

[theguyfromtatooine]

Regalia Advice

The point is, Native American cultures impresses me, otherwise i wouldn't search for the history of Native Americans, visit Native American web sites. And i even wouldn't try to learn some Lakota words. Traditional music and dances make me excited. What else can i say?

[SuzzeQ4]

The point is, Native American cultures impresses me, otherwise i wouldn't search for the history of Native Americans, visit Native American web sites. And i even wouldn't try to learn some Lakota words. Traditional music and dances make me excited. What else can i say?

Please read my above post and then tell me honestly; do you not see the connection I have tried to draw?

And in relation to the above post by Waienhawi what about YOUR traditions, why don't these excite you? If who you are doesn't excite you, then we can't help you

[theguyfromtatooine]

Regalia Advice

Here are my final words: Maybe we will meet at the Gathering of Nations of Nations one day!
Take care.