Skinny otter headbands....

[Str8Dancer49]

OK, I'd asked this ? once before, but the thread got side tracked, and the couple of answers that I got were clearly in reference to the full-size otter turbans instead of the skinny otter bands...

In the picture below, posted by Historian in this thread, You can see the man to the sitting to the right of Bacon Rind (Bill Dance ID'd him as Laban Miles) is wearing a "skinny" otter hat or headband - the fur is about 2 inches wide, not the 4-6 inch "turban" like Bacon Rind wears. These did not have the tail down the back, no flaps on the sides, no medallions.

My question is basically what's up with those? Given that the full-blown otter hats are tied to chiefs or their descendants, or religious leaders, etc (as has been covered in several other threads here), are there similar meanings tied to these skinny otter bands? Or are they less restricted in their use/meanings?

[wa-zha-zhe]

I'm pretty sure that they wore the smaller Otter Turban's for everyday wear, kind of like we wear ballcaps. Almost all the pictures that I see of Osage Men, they are wearing that style of Otter Turban. And, I bet they wore the taller more impressive looking ones for ceremonies and when they felt it was necessary. Personally, I would like to see it come back into style. I would wear mine. But, it is a different day and age.

[WhoMe]

I'm pretty sure that they wore the smaller Otter Turban's for everyday wear, kind of like we wear ballcaps. Almost all the pictures that I see of Osage Men, they are wearing that style of Otter Turban. And, I bet they wore the taller more impressive looking ones for ceremonies and when they felt it was necessary. Personally, I would like to see it come back into style. I would wear mine. But, it is a different day and age.

Dang wa-zhaz,

YOU need to bring this back into the arena. I think the old ones in your tribe would recognize it and commend you for bringing back an old style of dress.

With all the glitz and bling bling nowadays, it is refreshing when something that was once done, returns to the dance circle.

[superndngyrl]

Joaquin Hamilton brought it back. He wears the otter headband and roach.

[WhoMe]

Joaquin Hamilton brought it back. He wears the otter headband and roach.

super,


Wah? Keeeeen! *L

[records_all_drumz]

Yeah I seen Wahkeen wearing one...kind of contradicts his contemporary straight dance style though. If you go old style then go old style. Ya know....

Don't get me wrong, not bashing a good fella in Wahkeen. But if you gonna dress old style then one should dance old style.

[WhoMe]

Yeah I seen Wahkeen wearing one...kind of contradicts his contemporary straight dance style though. If you go old style then go old style. Ya know....

Don't get me wrong, not bashing a good fella in Wahkeen. But if you gonna dress old style then one should dance old style.

records,

Nowah!

Didn't South Band Pawnee used to wear fingerwoven turbans with their roaches?

[wa-zha-zhe]

Joaquin Hamilton brought it back. He wears the otter headband and roach.

I'm sure he feels like he's got to do whatever it takes to keep that winning edge. So anything goes.

[Historian]

My sources indicate that the larger, (between 5 to 7 inches wide), otter fur caps were worn by chiefs and sub-chiefs. The more elaborate the cap, with either otter tail flaps hanging down, otter tail side extentions, side horns, beaded medalions, cut-ribbon trim, feather or plume additions, had to do with the rank, status, and clan affiliations.

The same sources indicate that the smaller otter fur headbands, (about 3 inches wide), without any adorment, other than perhaps some edge beading, but often seen with the addition of a small turkey-beard hair roach and single roach feather, was the mark of notable warriors.

The fact that some known chiefs have been seen in photos (i.e. Bacon Rind), with either the larger otter fur cap, or the smaller otter fur headband and hair roach, would indicate that some chiefs and sub-chiefs were also notable warriors.

I would compare it to a modern politician who is also in the National Guard. When performing his hypothetical State Representative duties, he wears a business suit and tie. But when he is training with the National Guard, he wears his BDUs. Different clothes indicating a different set of responsibilities.

[pawtoeman]

WAY TO GO records_all_drumz, NOW THATS WHAT I'VE
BEEN TRYING TO SAY, THANKS!!!! HUH UPPIT!!!!

[Mr Bo Jangles]

For all the talk on Juaquin Hamilton sporting a mini turban with a roach.

Let's examine the facts here about his supposed "trend setting".


He didn't start anything back up.


For the record.

One need only travel North of Oklahoma, to Iowa.....Mesquakie Country.

The skinny turban, or the wide one, AND the fingerwoven turban.....are ALL STILL BEING WORN, WITH THE ROACH....by all age groups of the male population there during their dances.

From youngsters to the elderly.

I think that's the singular location where it never passed into memory or out of "fashion" like it did in Oklahoma, prior to the 20th century.

To address WhoMe's comment on some Osage here bringing it back because some old people might remember it.

I seriously doubt it....given the rarity of Osage who were even participating in their dances during that tumultuous period in their history, right about when they were ear high in oil money.

With the influx of the Peyote Religion, their dances nearly died out, and with it, the old religion, and with it, the older styles of dress, tatooing, etc.... SO, to say that there's an elderly Osage individual out there that would remember seeing it, or hearing about it, is highly doubtful in my opinion. OF course, I ain't Osage, so, what do i know!!

I believe there is a photo from about 1911, featuring the last documented Osage Mourning Dance....wherein, one could still see some individuals sporting this combination of roach and turban.....after that date, I haven't seen or read of any mention of that style of headgear.

This also ties in with my comment on the relative rarity of Osage's born prior to 1911, or shortly thereafter, that were old enough to even have seen or heard about it......more than likely, it's the latter......they heard about it, but, probably never saw one worn, save, in photos or in cedar chests in storage at their grandparent's house'.

Also of note here.

Angelo Normand has been wearing this combination of narrow turban and roach for sometime now......so, truth be told, he's been setting the powwow contest circuit trend for turban and roach for at least ten years, prior to Juaquin even thinking of the idea, or at least, putting one on.

....unless Juaquin was wearing one ten years ago and I'm just full of it.

....and aside from that, and folks here don't want to hear it or read it, but, the hobs in the know, or with indian relations, have also been wearing this type of headgear for several years as well....but, that's another issue, with a tangle of issues at it's heart, and I'm not going there. ...just mentioning it's usage among that crowd.

So. It never went out of "style", hasn't passed from memory from at least one tribal group that historically speaking, wore it, and continue to wear it....the Mesquakie.

Then again. I've always viewd the Mesquakie as a group of people that are the TRUE trend setters among ALL the Prairie Tribal Groups. They were and continue to be among the finest makers of some of the finest abstract floral beadwork, ribbonwork, fingerweaving, antler, bone carvers, metal smiths, around.

Their work, historically speaking, was sought after and PRIZED above many others, by all of their neighbors. Their claw necklaces are more than likely among the most original, and certainly, the most emulated by other tribal groups.

There's at least one necklace I know of that was traded South, and could be seen in several historically important photos, in each photo, taken at a different time, in a different locale, by a different photographer, and of a different tribal group. Clearly shows that this necklace had been traded, sold, or given away. No doubt because of it's beauty, it's craftsmanship, and it's importance......also of note, the photos in which this necklace appears, also seems to coincide with the passing of the Hethushka Drum and that dance complex among the tribes forcibly removed to Indian Territory.


......just my blather on the topic.

Mesquakie's........trend setters and fashionistas form the get go!!

[ern_dawg2003]

the OTTER AND ROACH LOOK!!!

why

[uppit]

you bet pt-man, old style all the way!

[Mr Bo Jangles]

Okay I was there when Wahkeen first broke out his New Look, and I have to say HE HAS RIGHTS IN HIS SAUK AND FOX BACKGROUND to wear the Otter and Roach combination. Now Angelos background is a big MYSTERY. I known Angelo for quite some years now and He wears his regalia jus because it's straight dance protocol. I know once before he wore the Otter and Roach combination. now he has the Yellow eagle feathers, the Shoulder feather drops, Bear Claw Neclace, and the Otter Harness. ALL has meanings which i know angelo don't have any ties to. BUT IT'S STRAIGHT DANCE PROTOCOL to him. In Wahkeen's situation don't hate on the BROTHER, cause he's restored a old custom and making it look GOOD!!!!! I got mad props to Wahkeen and his KEEN look. THAT'S MY 2 CENTS!!!!!

You call it "hate".

I call it "Getting the facts straight for posterities sake".

....so, it's not hate.

I'm not talking about rights or priveleges to do or wear things or meaning behind items.

Just stating that Angelo has been wearing one for sometime now. So. It can't be said that Juaquin brought or restored anything.

Even before Angelo though, about 1970 or thereabouts. There's a bunch of Pawnee's who were wearing this combination of roach and otter....so, there, more proof that it was still worn and used.

To apply a term like "restored" then is a moot point...and an inaccuracy at that.


Now I'll shut up.

[ern_dawg2003]

Setting record straight

why