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  • #16
    I have lived in the Mt. Scott area in Oklahoma for 20 years and my children are Comanche. My in-laws performed the Tu-Wee dance in Washington D.C. in 1976 under the direction of the late Joe Attocknie. The black shawl is very sacred to the Comanches and they have no qualms about telling you to take it off if you don't know why you are wearing it.
    It's always best to leave something like that alone. Like I have always said on here, if you don't already know about something...then it's not meant for you. If you were meant to wear one of these symbols on your regalia, someone would have given you that right. Otherwise, just don't. You could really offend some family, and then get offended yourself when they call you on it.

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    • #17
      Bingo

      To rwgirl: You just hit the nail on the head. Lookin' cool ain't the test for what a person shoud wear. If you don't know and don't have permission, just don't go there.

      To scottlollar: Black Aprons?!? That's how rumors get started. The Kiowa also have a reason for men wearing a black shawl (associated with membership in the various warrior societies). There are other issues related to the shawl that shouldn't be gotten into on this board. Your curiosity is not enough. (That should keep you awake for a few hours).

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      • #18
        Like I said, I don't remember who I got that info from, but it was a long time ago - I was a kid then. And as ususal, if I don't know, and no one tells me, I stay out of it. It ain't my business if they don't invite me. So, seeing as I have been corrected on the 'Black Aprons' bit, that bit of info got washed down the drain. Until someone can prove otherwise.
        Anyway, I only asked about the color. If it isn't something to be addressed here, that's fine. I understand. And it isn't a big deal for me to know. If I need to know, someone will invite me to know. That's how it goes. And that doesn't bother me in the least.
        Besides, I understand if you don't want me around. :sniff: I know how it is. :sniff sniff: New guy asks a question, gets spurned by everyone, new guy is forced to leave. :ball1: I can cope with that. :sniff sniff sniff - :Cry WAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!:Cry :: :worthy:
        (it's a joke! please don't take that last part seriously)

        :D

        Scott
        Scott

        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        Quick to judge,
        Quick to anger,
        Slow to understand
        Ignorance and prejudice
        And fear walk hand in hand.
        --Neal Peart(from the song Witch Hunt)

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        • #19
          RW and Parks: thanks for your thoughts and info.
          BOB

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          • #20
            i was never planning on wearing one. i don't even dance straight. i was just trying to learn something. sorry if i offended anyone by asking about this subject.
            Last edited by sutton's dad; 07-08-2003, 05:04 PM.

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            • #21
              Whoa nelly!

              I think it's safe to say that not all of the comments were directed to you personally.

              I don't think anyone is offended by the question. Having said that, others shouldn't be offended because their questions aren't answered here on this board.

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              • #22
                i think that my answers have been answered, and i am greatful for that. i apologize for sounding defensive.

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                • #23
                  ghb: no need for appologies. I agree with Parks, nobody got hostile that I noticed( and I notice these things). I believe that you had a very good question. Not every nation has the same traditions. When we see something we aren't sure of it is always good to have some where and some one to ask these questions. I know that I didn't have the answer though I have seen this many times. I always assumed it was one of there ways just like my people have ours.

                  Thank you for asking the question. I learned something, Too!!!!!!!
                  BOB

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                  • #24
                    huh?

                    Okay, so the shawl issue has been explained. Now can somebody tell me what the heck a hobbyist is?
                    Mad Scientists Union Local 42
                    Evil Geniuses For a Better Tomorrow

                    The secret of my succes is 30% natural talent, 10% inspiration, and the remaining 60% is just the fact that I am nucking futs.

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                    • #25
                      Hey there Crabby': The best I can figure out the Hobbiest are not Indians that dress and dance like Indians.
                      BOB

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                      • #26
                        Hobbyists are people who 'do the indian thing' as a hobby. They do it(whether dancing, or art, or spirituality, or whatever) because they think it's cool. They do it for all the wrong reasons. And they do it without the respect due it(whether dancing, or art, or spirituality, or whatever).

                        I've seen a few. And many folks disrespect hobbyiest organizations, like TIHA(Texas Indian Hobbyist Association) and I think California has one, but there are more. I've heard scuttlebutt about there being hobbyist orgs who are 'forming their own tribe' and starting their own powwow circuits and such. It's stuff like that which gets everyone up in arms over hobbyists.

                        Scott
                        Scott

                        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                        Quick to judge,
                        Quick to anger,
                        Slow to understand
                        Ignorance and prejudice
                        And fear walk hand in hand.
                        --Neal Peart(from the song Witch Hunt)

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          TIHA

                          TIHA is a good organization. Theres a few people who go who give it a bad name. Yes we have hobbiests and new agers, but many of the people are respectful and true ndns. It's that 10% that gives groups bad names. Have you been to a TIHA powwow? If you went you probobly noticed the 3 new agers, and that one scout group (just making a generalization I don't know how many there are). And branded the whole orginization. TIHA was formed to preserve and honor our heritage. And yes some people who go do not do that. But it is a good orginization with good people. Like I said it's the 10% in any group that gives it a bad reputation.

                          If I've misread your post and your not attacking the orginization, I am sorry for jumping at you. But I realy like TIHA and it realy is a great group. And if any scout groups read this look I think the scouts is a great group too. They do great things for their communties and country. But sometimes they don't respect the culture. And I'm not saying that any that go to TIHA powwows are like that.
                          Last edited by Tx_grass_dancer; 07-10-2003, 11:25 AM.

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                          • #28
                            Holy crap!
                            Are you guys for real?!?
                            How can you be Native and call yourself a hobbyist? Either you are Native or you aren't. From what it sounds like, you are using the excuse of beng a hobbyist to avoid dealing with any of the unpleasant things that come with living a full Traditional life.
                            You know what I call people like that? Part-Time NDNs because that's all they are. People like that only show up for pow-wows and sweats, and talk a good game about how traditional they are, but when the time comes to get their pretty little turkey feather bustles dirty doing things like protesting the removal of our ancestors from their burial places, or risking arrest in an act of civil disobedience to protect our soverign rights, or helping maintain some of these old burial mounds around here so that developers can't call them abandoned and file for termination of cemetery so they can build a golf course over our Grandmother's bones, these Part-Time NDNs are nowhere to be found.
                            And to the white "hobbyists", This is our freaking WAY OF LIFE!!!!! Not some stupid paint yourself NDN by number kit or an ERTL Build your own NDN set. If you persist in being so callously disrespectful of us, don't expect us to tolerate you either.

                            Scott, Chero, thank you guys for clarifying what a hobbyist is- a wannabeeby anyother name is still a wannabee.
                            Mad Scientists Union Local 42
                            Evil Geniuses For a Better Tomorrow

                            The secret of my succes is 30% natural talent, 10% inspiration, and the remaining 60% is just the fact that I am nucking futs.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              And Good Riddance!
                              Mad Scientists Union Local 42
                              Evil Geniuses For a Better Tomorrow

                              The secret of my succes is 30% natural talent, 10% inspiration, and the remaining 60% is just the fact that I am nucking futs.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Crabby

                                The point SDinAZ was trying to make is that powwow found it's origin among certain tribes and for ANY people that are not from those tribes or are not from a tribe that a specific dance was given to, then it is not there way. SDinAZ is a Navajo and his people have their own ways and their own traditional dances that are still practiced (as do the Creek that you show you are from) and powwow dances are not it. So what he is saying is that technically since these are not his tribes dances he sees himself as no different from anyone else of any color who comes to powwowing in a good way, Hobs included. Yes, most natives have ADOPTED powwowing but for most tribes they were not actually given each of the various dances by the tribes that started them. One can yell, fuss and scream all they want but there are powwows being held all over the world these days. England, France, Germany, Japan and Russia all have powwows being put on in their countries and you can bet it aint American tribes that are sponsoring them. This is the point that he was trying to make and not trying to start the 'who is more' pissing contest

                                With that said please feel free to retort and then let's PLEASE take this to a new thread if it must continue since this is way off the subject this thread was started for.

                                (by the way-you might notice the date when SDinAZ joined this board. Judging from that I doubt he will be leaving so easily or anytime soon)
                                PB49

                                "Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once we grow up." Pablo Picasso

                                "Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, but today is a gift...that is why is it called the Present." Master Oogway - KungFu Panda


                                My comments are based on what I have been taught and my experiences over the years I have been around the circle. They should in no way be taken as gospel truths and are merely my opinions or attempts at passing on what I have learned while still learning more.

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