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  • #31
    Originally posted by powwowbum49
    The point SDinAZ was trying to make is that powwow found it's origin among certain tribes and for ANY people that are not from those tribes or are not from a tribe that a specific dance was given to, then it is not there way. SDinAZ is a Navajo and his people have their own ways and their own traditional dances that are still practiced (as do the Creek that you show you are from) and powwow dances are not it.....
    This is the point that he was trying to make and not trying to start the 'who is more' pissing contest

    PB49....THANK YOU!!!!! I'm glad you took the time to respond in this way - emphasizing SDinAZ's point which Crabby missed. You totally wrote what I was thinking INCLUDING the pissing contest! LOL! Ten points to PB49. One point to Crabby...you proved you can pounce REAL GOOD!


    Yes, yes...on with the true subject - black waist shawls. Remember?:Angel:
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    • #32
      Ok people, and this really goes to you Crappy and the other people wanting to argue about hobbs again. This thread is about the right to or not to use black shawls . You all need to to start a new thread somewhere else. I will delete post or just close the thread if the hobb thing can not be moved to the Native new and issues area.....Thanks, TMS
      If I do not know the answer someone else will!!!!
      Also forgive me, this system does not have a spell check so forgive the bad spelling

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      • #33
        Uh-oh...

        Look what hornet's nest I stirred up.

        Officially, let me apologize. My mother-in-law is a new-ager who does not know the respect the Native cultures are due. She thinks 'being indian' is cool. She wants to do sweats, and dance at powwows, and lots of other stuff(like learning the Eagle Dance?!?!?!). But, only because she thinks it is neat. For her it is a fad.
        And that is what, if not who, I was referring to. For that I apologize. I should have defined that better. Or I should have kept my fingers off the keyboard. But, several people have said it best - it is always 10% of a group who defines the image portrayed to everyone else outside that group. And Tx_grass_dancer reminded me I had said that in an earlier thread.
        Again, I stirred up something I should have better left alone.

        Sorry, all.
        Scott
        Scott

        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        Quick to judge,
        Quick to anger,
        Slow to understand
        Ignorance and prejudice
        And fear walk hand in hand.
        --Neal Peart(from the song Witch Hunt)

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        • #34
          Black Shawl Wraps

          I talked with a man this weekend. I showed up early for grand entry and during the dinner break I cornered one of the gourd Dancers I've known for awhile. He will remain unnamed here, but that's for privacy more than anything else. He is a member of the Kiowa Gourd Clan. When I asked him to clarify it for me, without going into details, he said it is part of the Kiowa Gourd Clan's attire. 'To be fully attired as a Kiowa Gourd Clan memeber, you need to wear the black wrap shawl'.
          He did not specify that others can or cannot wear the shawl, and when he danced later after Grand Entry, he was not wearing the shawl. So, it appears the shawl is related to the Kiowa Gourd Clan.
          Now, that does not mean other societies or clans do not wear the shawl wrap. And if someone else has more info, that's fine. But, this man is an Elder, and is well respected around here.
          I hope that helps a bit.

          Scott
          Scott

          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          Quick to judge,
          Quick to anger,
          Slow to understand
          Ignorance and prejudice
          And fear walk hand in hand.
          --Neal Peart(from the song Witch Hunt)

          Comment


          • #35
            Thanks fo rthe info Scott.
            BOB

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            • #36
              I HOPE THIS HELPS

              __________


              According to some interpretations by Kiowa people (oral history and paintings) when the Kiowa still had hunting grounds inbetween the headwaters of the Yellowstone and Black Hills, they wore animal skin "wrap arounds" as everyday garments - not breechclouts as Hollywood portrayed all NDN's wearing.

              In warm weather just the wrap around was worn. In colder weather a skin top and leggins were worn in addition to the wrap around.

              With the coming of European traders (particularly the Spanish at the Taos rondezvous), the Kiowa adopted the blanket wraparound as an everyday garment. This evidence can again be found in oral history, paintings and photographs.

              The breechclout was later adopted.

              As Indian people are prone to adoption - when chainette fringe became available, it too was added for formal occasions.

              Today the Kiowa, Comanche and Kiowa Apache still wear this "formal" black shawl wrapped around their lower body for ceremonial occasions.

              Other tribes can tell that a dancer comes from these 3 above tribes by their symbollic black shawls.
              Powwows will continue to evolve in many directions. It is inevitable.

              Comment


              • #37
                I have also seen a couple of Cheyennes wearing wraps similar to the ones described in this thread. Do you think that there might be some society in that Nation that is similar to the ones from the Kiowa?

                Oh, and by the way, You sooo did not get the point of my post. It was not a pissing match, it was a lot of frustration and anger at some of these people around here who match the description of "hobbyist". And who manage to undermine and insult everything that I and others have fought for. But that is a topic for a different time.



                __________________________________________________ _

                Things that make me laugh

                Prize-winning traditional dancers make me laugh.
                White Indian experts make me laugh.
                Christian Indians make me laugh.
                White artists who paint Indian things better than Indians make me laugh.
                Indian tacos being called a traditional food makes me laugh.
                Indians who call themselves cowboys make me laugh.
                Mixing Indian culture with the dominant society makes me laugh."
                -Jack Malotte 1995
                Mad Scientists Union Local 42
                Evil Geniuses For a Better Tomorrow

                The secret of my succes is 30% natural talent, 10% inspiration, and the remaining 60% is just the fact that I am nucking futs.

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                • #38
                  Crabbyolebear:

                  I certainly appreciate all the efforts you and others are doing to keep things half way respectable where you live and visit.

                  You're right. The Southern Cheyenne and Arapaho did wrap blankets around their lower half like the 3 aforementioned tribes. However, this practice is seldom seen anymore in modern times.

                  Yeah, we need to talk about your last comment in another thread.
                  Powwows will continue to evolve in many directions. It is inevitable.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Dear WhoMe

                    That's an interesting explanation that I had not heard.

                    I've seen some photos of Silverhorn wearing this wrap you described, as well as a huge fur cap (not the otter one), and other items. But, the resemblance is only partial.

                    I would also distinguish between the blanket wrap and the black shawl.

                    There are, however, drawings and references to other shawls for other occasions that came before the gourd dance that may have been an influence. Any thoughts?

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                    • #40
                      Park:

                      Yes, the Kiowa and most tribes wore head attire from other animals beside the otter. The otter was considered "valuable" and had status. Thus, today it is worn to "dress up."

                      In the pedestrian days of the plains ndn, functional attire was worn much like today. Today we do not wear our finest for everyday wear.

                      The blanket wrap-around was used by northern plains, southern plains and plateau tribes. The black shawl wrap around is symbollic of another form of "dress up attire" for the Kiowa, Comanche and Kiowa Apache people. It is also tribal specific attire.

                      When I danced with the black shawl wrap-around at the Pawhuska Inlonska, I heard some of the Wahshashe men commenting that I was Kiowa - by the way I dressed.

                      In reference to which is older - "the other shawls for other occasions" - or the gourd dance. We need to assess how old the legend of the Red Wolf is that brought the gourd dance to the Kiowa.
                      Last edited by WhoMe; 07-24-2003, 11:07 AM.
                      Powwows will continue to evolve in many directions. It is inevitable.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Just passing through and caught what sounded like an interesting discussion..

                        over the years, i have been blessed by the creator with people in my life who have been willing to share with me, whether it be songs or dance regalia. But they shared in such a way as to promote and perpetuate that generosity

                        Our old-time chiefs were like that, not like some of the present day political position holders. A chief was chosen most often for his ability to care for the people and most times that meant giving his own away.

                        Now in my life that kind of sharing has been something that has deeply affected me. and so in that same spirit, i also would like to share with you all.

                        And also in that same spirit, i always share with others who come to me for advice about songs ( i ain't an expert, but will share what i know and have learned)

                        A couple of years ago there was a lot of discussion about how natives should stick to their own ceremonies. Lakotas to the sun dance, kiowas to their gourd dance, navajos to their squaw dances and ceremonials.

                        If that is the case then someone should go and kick the person who first shared things out. For example the first Kiowa to tell a person from another tribe that it was ok for them to gourd dance, the first lakota to share the sun dance with the navajos, and that first navajo who shared his songs with the hollywood industries for use in movies. I say this last because watching movies like the man called horse series, that last movie has supposed lakotas singing navajo squaw dance songs. And also in other movies you hear other "tribes" singing their war dance but what was actually being played was Navajo songs. I laugh, whoever the filmmaker was must have not done much research in that time and place

                        So my thing is, I sing and I dance. I will sit down with older, more respected singers to talk about songs and the dances. I am not from Oklahoma, though i do have kinfolk out there. I try and respect the ways that these dances were shared with us.
                        But my whole point is, IF THE CREATOR DID NOT WANT US TO HAVE THESE DANCES, THEN HE WOULD NOT HAVE PUT THAT SEED OF GENEROSITY INTO THE PERSON(S) WHO SHARED THESE THINGS WITH OTHERS.

                        And for your information, the late Chief Frank Fools Crow, i believe was the one who shared the sun dance with the navajos. As for Kiowas sharing the gourd dance, i don't know who did that.

                        Again, there was an instance where i asked an older singer about a song, i got that song all right but i also got a diatribe about how only KIOWAS got the right to dance the dance and only KIOWAS should make songs. I thought it was the Creator who made the songs and shared them through certain singers to be a blessing to the people. I don't know.

                        I thank God that he made me native, and gave me the gift of song and dance.

                        A-Ho

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                        • #42
                          DArn,

                          Nobody seems to like those Navahos and Kiowas!

                          :wounded1:
                          Powwows will continue to evolve in many directions. It is inevitable.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            napsese said:
                            But my whole point is, IF THE CREATOR DID NOT WANT US TO HAVE THESE DANCES, THEN HE WOULD NOT HAVE PUT THAT SEED OF GENEROSITY INTO THE PERSON(S) WHO SHARED THESE THINGS WITH OTHERS.
                            This is an excuse to use what was not yours originally. If you believe in the Creator as a benevolent being then you must also believe in tricksters that do things to create havoc amongst us.
                            No matter how people want to justify what they do, I believe they just liked what they see and decide to adopt it.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Standstill:

                              __


                              Good point. You ought to check out the cloth dance thread under - women's cloth dress for sale.

                              You will appreciate it and get mad at the same time!
                              Powwows will continue to evolve in many directions. It is inevitable.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Hmmm

                                Hmmmm.
                                Friends dont let friends take home ugly Men. :huddle:

                                :indian1: THE DARKER THE FLESH THEN THE DEEPER THE ROOTS :indian1:

                                Comment

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