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  • #16
    I think that was a perfect answer..That's prety much it..depends on the society, tribe, family, etc. ie Perspective..
    Problem is, what happens when some one views another dancer within thier own guidlines and standards..problems are caused.
    So I put my hands up, they're playin' my song
    The butterflies fly away
    I'm noddin' my head like "Yeah!"
    Movin' my hips like "Yeah!"
    -Miley Cyrus

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    • #17
      When I went to Morongo last year, I received a look, I believe, because of my otter hat. I am Anishinaabe, so.... it's what I wear.

      This is a straight dancing thread, so what is said about straight dancers wearing otter caps doesn't pertain to me.

      We have our way, straight dancers have theirs.

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      • #18
        See thats unfortunate. I'm not afraid to ask questions and people have allways given me a kind answer. It should never hurt to ask a question. However I have seen people ask a simple question and get no answer. Instead that person blows it out of porportion, thinking it was an insult. There is only bad feelings and no answer. That is not what a powwow is about. I hear of this more and more every powwow.

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        • #19
          This is a good thread,,,,
          I now live up in the great lakes area too, and even on straight dancers I see otter turbans, sometimes it's related to societies or sometimes it is just the tradition of that person's tribe (I can think of one or two fellas who are straight dancers even though they are from northern tribes). But at this point I am happy to see anyone else with a dragger at a powwow.
          I have seen this otter and roach look on mesquakies(?) from over in Iowa. never asked if it was related to their dance or not. I just thought the guys was ashamed to look like Mr. Clean. aayyee.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by ANGELO View Post
            ... nobody on here is a real traditional hethuska member accept for some omaha or poncas...


            Oh. This is going to get fun....
            Powwows will continue to evolve in many directions. It is inevitable.

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            • #21
              yeah...historian? what say you to that?
              So I put my hands up, they're playin' my song
              The butterflies fly away
              I'm noddin' my head like "Yeah!"
              Movin' my hips like "Yeah!"
              -Miley Cyrus

              Comment


              • #22
                Hey Hey Hey! I must say that this has been a good read! The point was made about doing things for show and all and something hit me like a brick -ouch-!

                The idea of wearing medals that you did not earn is important. I know in other discussions I have heard of sons wearing dad's/ grandpa's etc. Purple Heart, Bronze Star and what not to honor dad/ grandpa etc. But no matter how good those intentions were, the vets I know said that it took a little something away from all the men (and women) who earned the right to wear it. In addition it was misleading to people because you had to ask a person to get the low down. I was taught that these clothes once told you everything about a man and those clothes were his medals. In some places I have been it is right for a female relative (mostly wives in my experience) to wear those honors but not a son... the son has to make his own way. I am sure this is not always the case though... depends on who you talk to as I have heard different things.

                Now today things have changed and I have been told that you don't wear what has not been given to you. Now something like a beaded belt might be innocent enough, but those folks told me to make yourself a old style quirt and carry it around without the honor of being a whipman is wrong. Same for tail sticks and other 'badges of office'. So when a young boy is roached, he has the right to wear that symbol and that blade feather. It was paid for in a manner that is different, but related to the older way of paying for it. Furthermore the headman of an organization often might give a person taking a new position that symbol to make it official. Even now, many people are dressed by family and the clothes were made for you and show everyone the type of support you have. A little different from the older meanings but things changed when the tribes were told where to live and the freedom to earn those old honors disappeared. Instead of giving it all up, it started to change and take new meaning.

                Now every tribe does do it different and some things that mean something to one group might just be clothes to another. That is why it is important for a dancer to pay attention to more that just what they see.

                Asking questions is important but how you do it is even more important I have found. Now keep in mind that I know only what has been taught to me so I am willing to bet that I am waaayyy wrong on all of this so please take this with a teenie tiny grain of salt.
                Last edited by Fat Albert; 09-16-2008, 02:28 AM.

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                • #23
                  Angelo,

                  I don't agree with your statement, about heluska members. Do you speak for all societies and their members? Are you yourself even a member? Where, who, when, what family, better yet, what tribe?

                  I've known you for sometime, before you started dancing, before you claimed you was from Oklahoma. I don't see where all this expertise is coming from. Sure you talked to a few families, might've even read a few historical facts but are you yourself that knowlegable and experienced to stand out in front and make such bold statements???

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                  • #24
                    I couldn't agree more!!!!!!
                    Last edited by shawndaes; 09-16-2008, 01:06 PM.

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                    • #25
                      Here we go

                      Opps, couldn't agree more w/ Fat Albert, but i agree w/ Osage too. LMAO

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by travelingmocs View Post
                        This year I have noticed a trend of wearing a plain otter cap with and roach. Now this caps I assumed from old pictures I have seen were signs of chiefs with certin tribes. Juquian Hamilton looks awsome out there with his.... But why are peps doing this? May reviving a old tradition?
                        This is how the thread started.........


                        I responded to the Juquian reference. We know the him and the family. We know the tribes he comes from. Although it looks keen, doesn't mean that you automatically have the right to wear these things. There are some of us, whites and indians, that believe that there are some things you are entitled to and others that you are not.....just like wearing medals........Just because you like it, doesn't mean it is okay. And by the way, I personally like the guy, just don't like the bear claws and roach/turban thing. But those are my tastes and beliefs.

                        So you will know, I also don't think that just because you like a specific dance style you should change your clothes and style of dance just because you have access to an outfit or want too because it looks cool........this doesn't apply to just straight dancers, applies to all categories and both sexes. Why not be be who you are and take care of things in a respectful manner.........pay your way and follow those ways.

                        The key is to be respectful, to learn the ways and to take care of it.....
                        Last edited by luvstraightdancrs; 09-17-2008, 01:37 AM. Reason: personal preference

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by osagesooner View Post
                          Angelo,

                          I don't agree with your statement, about heluska members. Do you speak for all societies and their members? Are you yourself even a member? Where, who, when, what family, better yet, what tribe?

                          I've known you for sometime, before you started dancing, before you claimed you was from Oklahoma. I don't see where all this expertise is coming from. Sure you talked to a few families, might've even read a few historical facts but are you yourself that knowlegable and experienced to stand out in front and make such bold statements???
                          Couldn't agree more....I remember Indian Hills many years back and a drumstick bag I made that he won. He wasn't dancing then. Another questions is "Why don't you dance around home, Oklahoma, that is?????????

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                          • #28
                            Say young man(angelo) I don't get on here very often but an ole friend called and expressed his voice about this thread, so here goes.

                            You were speaking of warrior status and rights, who and how are you able to wear "Bear Claws", again about warriors i've heard and understand that most men earn the right or given by elders for reasons unknown to many of us and some come from Chieftain lineage same as the Otter Cap; Like my ole friend "pawtoeman" comes from the Chieftain line from both of his parents to wear the Otter cap. And he is a member of the Heluska on both sides of the families, a Whipman, Taildancer. As for members of the Heluska his good friend "osagesooner" is too.

                            Now the gentleman that said the Otter cap/roach that he wears is his tribal dress and as for Oklahoma dancers wearing these items, I can only say that maybe their family has photos or they know more than I do beczuse i'm no expert, I just know what I know.

                            I too would like to know what "osagesooner" and "luvs" asked of you, i'm jsut wondering and waiting for the answer.
                            I'll borrow pawtoeman's saying:

                            "this is all I have to say>"

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                            • #29
                              Last edited by uppit; 09-17-2008, 12:56 PM.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by luvstraightdancrs View Post
                                This is how the thread started.........


                                I responded to the Juquian reference. We know the him and the family. We know the tribes he comes from. Although it looks keen, doesn't mean that you automatically have the right to wear these things. There are some of us, whites and indians, that believe that there are some things you are entitled to and others that you are not.....just like wearing medals........Just because you like it, doesn't mean it is okay. And by the way, I personally like the guy, just don't like the bear claws and roach/turban thing. But those are my tastes and beliefs.

                                Why not be be who you are and take care of things in a respectful manner.........pay your way and follow those ways.

                                The key is to be respectful, to learn the ways and to take care of it.....
                                Luvs, you know I can't agree with you more. I sit back and watch these contemporary straight dancers and scratch my head. We've had our straight dance forever and hold it in the highest esteem, including the men that keep our dances and drums in place without much change.

                                What is the deal with an otter cap/roach combo and bear claw necklaces? It seems to be all about the money, the contest, the latest fashion statement. These guys need to get back to their tribal dances and back to basics, be humble. The problem is they don't. They are on the powwow trail and just out to "out do" each other. Where I come from, not just anyone can wear the bear claw or otter cap. I think that is what is so offensive and annoying. I'm all for encouraging young people to be dressed and dance, but please uphold our old ways and don't put your wallet in front of respect and what is right.

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                                • Str8Dancer49
                                  skinny otter hats/headbands
                                  by Str8Dancer49
                                  Hey all.... OK, I saw an old photo of Bacon Rind and some other Osages.... of course Bacon Rind was wearing his familiar otter hat, but some of the other men (actually looked to be in their late teens) were wearing what might be called "skinny" otter hats or headbands - the fur was about...
                                  03-16-2006, 07:39 PM
                                • Str8Dancer49
                                  Skinny otter headbands....
                                  by Str8Dancer49
                                  OK, I'd asked this ? once before, but the thread got side tracked, and the couple of answers that I got were clearly in reference to the full-size otter turbans instead of the skinny otter bands...

                                  In the picture below, posted by Historian in this thread, You can see the man to the sitting...
                                  10-09-2007, 07:34 PM
                                • HaskellAlum
                                  Roach.. Crown??
                                  by HaskellAlum
                                  I dont know if this is the perfect place to put this but.. I have recently noticied a few dancers (northern trad and one chicken) with these little beaded crown dealies on the front of their roach... Have I just not ever noticied them before? or is this a new thing?
                                  Just curious what they are...
                                  03-07-2011, 10:05 PM
                                • alumphfres
                                  Roach - Headgear Help
                                  by alumphfres
                                  Mitakuye oyasin

                                  For the last 10 years, I've always secured my roach with my warriors braid. Alas, got a haircut, no warriors braid or any braids for that matter. Need a link to resource(s) to adapt current roach to one with headband while I grow my mane back out.
                                  07-08-2004, 11:41 PM
                                • Guest's Avatar
                                  Otter Hats and turbans
                                  by Guest
                                  I have seen some pictures of otter hats worn by straight dancers. The best one show what looks like no top to it. My question is this normal or can the hat be made either way.
                                  Thanks
                                  10-09-2003, 11:02 AM

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