Otter Cap with roach

[ewoaf]

I think that was a perfect answer..That's prety much it..depends on the society, tribe, family, etc. ie Perspective..
Problem is, what happens when some one views another dancer within thier own guidlines and standards..problems are caused.

[Kiwehnzii]

When I went to Morongo last year, I received a look, I believe, because of my otter hat. I am Anishinaabe, so.... it's what I wear.

This is a straight dancing thread, so what is said about straight dancers wearing otter caps doesn't pertain to me.

We have our way, straight dancers have theirs.

[shawndaes]

See thats unfortunate. I'm not afraid to ask questions and people have allways given me a kind answer. It should never hurt to ask a question. However I have seen people ask a simple question and get no answer. Instead that person blows it out of porportion, thinking it was an insult. There is only bad feelings and no answer. That is not what a powwow is about. I hear of this more and more every powwow.

[legalstraight]

This is a good thread,,,,
I now live up in the great lakes area too, and even on straight dancers I see otter turbans, sometimes it's related to societies or sometimes it is just the tradition of that person's tribe (I can think of one or two fellas who are straight dancers even though they are from northern tribes). But at this point I am happy to see anyone else with a dragger at a powwow.
I have seen this otter and roach look on mesquakies(?) from over in Iowa. never asked if it was related to their dance or not. I just thought the guys was ashamed to look like Mr. Clean. aayyee.

[WhoMe]

... nobody on here is a real traditional hethuska member accept for some omaha or poncas...

Oh. This is going to get fun....

[ewoaf]

yeah...historian? what say you to that?

[Fat Albert]

Hey Hey Hey! I must say that this has been a good read! The point was made about doing things for show and all and something hit me like a brick -ouch-!

The idea of wearing medals that you did not earn is important. I know in other discussions I have heard of sons wearing dad's/ grandpa's etc. Purple Heart, Bronze Star and what not to honor dad/ grandpa etc. But no matter how good those intentions were, the vets I know said that it took a little something away from all the men (and women) who earned the right to wear it. In addition it was misleading to people because you had to ask a person to get the low down. I was taught that these clothes once told you everything about a man and those clothes were his medals. In some places I have been it is right for a female relative (mostly wives in my experience) to wear those honors but not a son... the son has to make his own way. I am sure this is not always the case though... depends on who you talk to as I have heard different things.

Now today things have changed and I have been told that you don't wear what has not been given to you. Now something like a beaded belt might be innocent enough, but those folks told me to make yourself a old style quirt and carry it around without the honor of being a whipman is wrong. Same for tail sticks and other 'badges of office'. So when a young boy is roached, he has the right to wear that symbol and that blade feather. It was paid for in a manner that is different, but related to the older way of paying for it. Furthermore the headman of an organization often might give a person taking a new position that symbol to make it official. Even now, many people are dressed by family and the clothes were made for you and show everyone the type of support you have. A little different from the older meanings but things changed when the tribes were told where to live and the freedom to earn those old honors disappeared. Instead of giving it all up, it started to change and take new meaning.

Now every tribe does do it different and some things that mean something to one group might just be clothes to another. That is why it is important for a dancer to pay attention to more that just what they see.

Asking questions is important but how you do it is even more important I have found. Now keep in mind that I know only what has been taught to me so I am willing to bet that I am waaayyy wrong on all of this so please take this with a teenie tiny grain of salt.

[osagesooner]

Angelo,

I don't agree with your statement, about heluska members. Do you speak for all societies and their members? Are you yourself even a member? Where, who, when, what family, better yet, what tribe?

I've known you for sometime, before you started dancing, before you claimed you was from Oklahoma. I don't see where all this expertise is coming from. Sure you talked to a few families, might've even read a few historical facts but are you yourself that knowlegable and experienced to stand out in front and make such bold statements???

[shawndaes]

I couldn't agree more!!!!!!

[shawndaes]

Here we go

Opps, couldn't agree more w/ Fat Albert, but i agree w/ Osage too. LMAO

[luvstraightdancrs]

This year I have noticed a trend of wearing a plain otter cap with and roach. Now this caps I assumed from old pictures I have seen were signs of chiefs with certin tribes. Juquian Hamilton looks awsome out there with his.... But why are peps doing this? May reviving a old tradition?

This is how the thread started.........


I responded to the Juquian reference. We know the him and the family. We know the tribes he comes from. Although it looks keen, doesn't mean that you automatically have the right to wear these things. There are some of us, whites and indians, that believe that there are some things you are entitled to and others that you are not.....just like wearing medals........Just because you like it, doesn't mean it is okay. And by the way, I personally like the guy, just don't like the bear claws and roach/turban thing. But those are my tastes and beliefs.

So you will know, I also don't think that just because you like a specific dance style you should change your clothes and style of dance just because you have access to an outfit or want too because it looks cool........this doesn't apply to just straight dancers, applies to all categories and both sexes. Why not be be who you are and take care of things in a respectful manner.........pay your way and follow those ways.

The key is to be respectful, to learn the ways and to take care of it.....

[luvstraightdancrs]

Angelo,

I don't agree with your statement, about heluska members. Do you speak for all societies and their members? Are you yourself even a member? Where, who, when, what family, better yet, what tribe?

I've known you for sometime, before you started dancing, before you claimed you was from Oklahoma. I don't see where all this expertise is coming from. Sure you talked to a few families, might've even read a few historical facts but are you yourself that knowlegable and experienced to stand out in front and make such bold statements???

Couldn't agree more....I remember Indian Hills many years back and a drumstick bag I made that he won. He wasn't dancing then. Another questions is "Why don't you dance around home, Oklahoma, that is?????????

[uppit]

Say young man(angelo) I don't get on here very often but an ole friend called and expressed his voice about this thread, so here goes.

You were speaking of warrior status and rights, who and how are you able to wear "Bear Claws", again about warriors i've heard and understand that most men earn the right or given by elders for reasons unknown to many of us and some come from Chieftain lineage same as the Otter Cap; Like my ole friend "pawtoeman" comes from the Chieftain line from both of his parents to wear the Otter cap. And he is a member of the Heluska on both sides of the families, a Whipman, Taildancer. As for members of the Heluska his good friend "osagesooner" is too.

Now the gentleman that said the Otter cap/roach that he wears is his tribal dress and as for Oklahoma dancers wearing these items, I can only say that maybe their family has photos or they know more than I do beczuse i'm no expert, I just know what I know.

I too would like to know what "osagesooner" and "luvs" asked of you, i'm jsut wondering and waiting for the answer.
I'll borrow pawtoeman's saying:

"this is all I have to say>"

[uppit]

[Ivanasnagu]

This is how the thread started.........


I responded to the Juquian reference. We know the him and the family. We know the tribes he comes from. Although it looks keen, doesn't mean that you automatically have the right to wear these things. There are some of us, whites and indians, that believe that there are some things you are entitled to and others that you are not.....just like wearing medals........Just because you like it, doesn't mean it is okay. And by the way, I personally like the guy, just don't like the bear claws and roach/turban thing. But those are my tastes and beliefs.

Why not be be who you are and take care of things in a respectful manner.........pay your way and follow those ways.

The key is to be respectful, to learn the ways and to take care of it.....

Luvs, you know I can't agree with you more. I sit back and watch these contemporary straight dancers and scratch my head. We've had our straight dance forever and hold it in the highest esteem, including the men that keep our dances and drums in place without much change.

What is the deal with an otter cap/roach combo and bear claw necklaces? It seems to be all about the money, the contest, the latest fashion statement. These guys need to get back to their tribal dances and back to basics, be humble. The problem is they don't. They are on the powwow trail and just out to "out do" each other. Where I come from, not just anyone can wear the bear claw or otter cap. I think that is what is so offensive and annoying. I'm all for encouraging young people to be dressed and dance, but please uphold our old ways and don't put your wallet in front of respect and what is right.