Whistlemen

[WhoMe]

Most powwow people are familiar with northern whistlemen. As the grass dance spread north, one of the ceremonial positions in the Omaha dance and grass dance societies was the whistle carrier. When a whistle carrier blows their whistle over a drum, normally the drum will sing another four leads.

Are there also whistlemen among straight dancers? If so when is the appropriate time to blow their whistle? Does blowing a whistle have the same meaning as when a northern dancer blows it?

[50cal]

Back in the mid-90's my grandpa Billy Wahnee blew a whistle on Stoney Park at the Red Mountain Eagle powwow. My grandpa was dancing as a straight dancer then and he also initiated my cousins drum group ( A Northern Contemp drum) into the circle.

I bring this up, because I have not seen another straight dancer do this or I am just not paying enough attention at powwows.......

[legalstraight]

I have seen one straight dancer whistle a drum, but he did it like a Northern dancer, and I didn't know him so cannot say how he came to straight.

[powwowbum49]

Why is it that the southern dancer needs to do it like a northern dancer would. Why isn't a tail dancer raising his stick treated the same way and expected to be honored by both northern and southern drums the same way a whistle blown on a drum is expected to be honored?

From what I was taught the use of a whistle is not the same north and south. Frankly I miss hearing whistles being blown during songs the way they used to be at the southern dances. I think it bites that southern guys don't do it any more cause of what seemed to be nothing more than keeping the northern guys from getting bent about it. Same with a feather that fell off ones outfit and hit the floor...way different up north than it USED TO BE down south.

just 2 cents on a personal gripe!

[BigChef]

Are there also whistlemen among straight dancers? If so when is the appropriate time to blow their whistle? Does blowing a whistle have the same meaning as when a northern dancer blows it?

No facts, but as an opinion it seems that the tail dancers are related to whistlemen kinna somehow. Regional differences between society and man dances?

Now there is a well known straight dancer who is a whistleman... but in the northern fashion who's whistle comes from the north with northern ways. Not what you are asking I know, but there it is.

If you know the answers I hope you'll drop some knowledge if no one else does.

[LSS]

Why is it that the southern dancer needs to do it like a northern dancer would. Why isn't a tail dancer raising his stick treated the same way and expected to be honored by both northern and southern drums the same way a whistle blown on a drum is expected to be honored?

one word for ya....



IGNORANCE

[WhoMe]

Now there is a well known straight dancer who is a whistleman... but in the northern fashion who's whistle comes from the north with northern ways. Not what you are asking I know, but there it is.

If you know the answers I hope you'll drop some knowledge if no one else does.

Big,

I think I know the tail dancer you're talking about. Is it the one that lives in SoDak?

I have some answers but not the complete picture. I am hoping for more input.

My father-in-law is a lifelong tail dancer. He carries an eagle bone whistle and blows it during certain tails.

I have been at a dance where a special "whistle carriers song" was requested. As this song was sung, several straight dancers danced the entire song while blowing their whistles. (The whisles they blew were not eagle bone).

[BigChef]

Yes, that's who I'm talking about.

This and other threads got me thinking about tail dancers and whistlemen. I've heard as well as read on here that tail dances do not belong in todays powwows. That their place is at the different man dances. If this is accurate, It makes me wonder why or how it became common for northern whistlemen to to blow their whistles at todays powwows. I know they are here at powwows and not going away, I just wonder if they have always been used at "intertribal powwows" or if there was a time where they were confined to society dances. Or something like that.

[Historian]

Most powwow people are familiar with northern whistlemen. As the grass dance spread north, one of the ceremonial positions in the Omaha dance and grass dance societies was the whistle carrier. When a whistle carrier blows their whistle over a drum, normally the drum will sing another four leads.

Are there also whistlemen among straight dancers? If so when is the appropriate time to blow their whistle? Does blowing a whistle have the same meaning as when a northern dancer blows it?

In a conversation I once had with Isaac Williams (Ponca Crier) in the 1980s, he said that in the Ponca Hethuska there used to be a position of a Whistle Carrier, and there was also a song for the Whistle Carrier. In addition, he told me that in the early 1900s the Ponca Hethuska Whistle (made from River Cane), ended up in a museum.

I then talked with other Ponca elders at the time, such as Harry Buffalohead, Bill Collins, Abe Conklin, and Paul Roughface, who agreed with Isaac's account.

[BigChef]

Any mention on the reasons for the decline Historian?

[Historian]

Any mention on the reasons for the decline Historian?

The only explanation was that the Whistle Song was lost, and without the song, the Cane Whistle could not be used.

[BigChef]

thanks.

[Fat Albert]

Who Me and folks, I guess it depends on the whistle. As I understand it, these are yet another item that should be given to a person (ie: rights). There are a number of ways this can happen as I have run into and the only thing I know for sure is that when a person is given this honor/ right they should be taught how, when and so on. I have seen men carry the cane whistles and understand they used these because of their relationship with water among other things. On a practical note, it makes sense because these canes are hollow which make it easy to build a whistle. I have also heard a story that these came to the Poncas as a result of a war deed. I was told that a long time ago a Sioux man hunter was out to make a name for himself so he hid outside of a Ponca camp and would blow his whistle to draw out a warrior. He would then kill this warrior and repeat until a Ponca got the best of him and retained the whistle as a prize. Now, I am not sure that makes a lot of sense because I doubt any tribe would send their members off one by one but then again, this is what I was told and I have no idea if he even killed one Ponca. I was not there to know for sure and the story teller did not offer those details. What I do know for sure is that I have not seen these kind of whistles carried by Poncas anywhere I have been in the short time I have been around the circle.

Now as for eagle bone whistles, I have seen those a lot here and there. Whole different ballgame. In listening to recordings from the 60's they are all over the place and are a good measure of the spirit of the dance. It does not sound like when they get blown the drum does anything different to my untrained ear. In addition I don't hear any of those songs being brought back up on the tail either. Again I understand that is not a Ponca tradition even though they added it at one point when they gave the dance to another tribe.

Keep in mind this is what I have heard so no idea how accurate or romantic any of it is. Some I heard from Poncas, some I heard from non Poncas and some I heard from non indians. What I am talking about here is all in relation to the war dances and not pow wow (I have seen entirely different stuff there).

[WhoMe]

Yes, that's who I'm talking about.

Big,

I was actually there when he got his whistle. I am good friends with the person who carried out the ceremony. Afterward I had coffee with this person from Pine Ridge who gave him the whistle and right to blow it.

He said he had been observing this new whistle carrier for a long time. This person already had a strong Idian last name and spent his life helping young people learn their culture. These were some of the attributes that prompted him to pass down this right to be a whistle carrier.

[WhoMe]

What I do know for sure is that I have not seen these kind of whistles carried by Poncas anywhere I have been in the short time I have been around the circle.

Fat,

I wonder if any Northern Ponca carry a whistle. If so, do they use it the Northern or Southern way described by Historian?