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  • morning water
    replied
    My grandfather was Albert Waters who was an elder to Lamont Brown, Sylvester Warrior and Able Conklin. When I started dancing at a very early age, I danced as a girl fancy dancer. I was shown how to trot dance. My teachers were Charlie, Albert and other elders of that era. I can remember when Uncle Abe actually started dancing. I have always loved to dance but one thing....trot dance should NOT be used as contest songs. I've seen some interesting comments on this site and some of them sound 'glon thi'. Irene was my daughter in the ponca tradition as well as many others. It's good to know there folks out there that sound like they want to learn. There are many things said that I can't agree with because and they aren't coming from our Indian people. I pick up on this quickly. This is a different time from the ways of our elders....sometimes I've shed tears from some comments but life goes on.
    Last edited by morning water; 06-20-2007, 08:10 PM. Reason: bad spelling

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  • LSS
    replied
    Originally posted by powwow View Post
    I know I haven't posted in ages, but I thought I'd come out of retirement for this one...

    I had been told years ago that the name "trot" is a bit of a misnomer. They are actually "wounded warrior" songs, as some other posters have mentioned. The dance is a "left foot led dance", meaning that (assuming the singers don't add or drop any beats during the song) you begin the song with a heavy step with your left foot followed by a "dragging" step with your right. As long as the song is sung correctly you left foot should come down at the beginning of every verse, on all the hard beats in the middle, and on the very last beat of the song. I've had old Ponca men come up to me before and thank me for dancing "trot" songs the way I do. To quote one person specifically, "You danced those the 'old' way...the wounded warrior way! You don't see that much anymore. People just don't know."

    There are supposedly sixteen (16) "trot" songs, but most people only know the four that are on vol. #2 of the War Dance Songs of the Ponca albums.

    Now, something else to talk about is the proper way to dance "No-sta-peh" songs, which sound similar to "trot" songs, but have no words in them. They are also called Ponca "tip-toe" songs and are danced on the balls of your feet.

    Also, from what I understand, there are not exactly Buffalo or Snake dance songs from the Ponca. The songs people know as Buffalo songs are actually "White Horse Rider" songs, which are basically lullabys sung to the daughters of chiefs. From what I've been told, some time in the 1950s or so a group of Ponca singers were host drum at a dance in New Mexico or Arizona and they were asked to sing Buffalo and Snake dance songs. Since the Buffalo and Snake dance were Southwest dances, they didn't know any, so they asked what they sounded like. Apparently, the songs sounded similar to "White Horse Rider" songs, so they used those instead.

    Interesting feed! Thanks for the info!

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  • powwow
    replied
    Wounded Warrior Songs, No-sta-peh Songs, and Whitehorse Rider Songs

    I know I haven't posted in ages, but I thought I'd come out of retirement for this one...

    I had been told years ago that the name "trot" is a bit of a misnomer. They are actually "wounded warrior" songs, as some other posters have mentioned. The dance is a "left foot led dance", meaning that (assuming the singers don't add or drop any beats during the song) you begin the song with a heavy step with your left foot followed by a "dragging" step with your right. As long as the song is sung correctly you left foot should come down at the beginning of every verse, on all the hard beats in the middle, and on the very last beat of the song. I've had old Ponca men come up to me before and thank me for dancing "trot" songs the way I do. To quote one person specifically, "You danced those the 'old' way...the wounded warrior way! You don't see that much anymore. People just don't know."

    There are supposedly sixteen (16) "trot" songs, but most people only know the four that are on vol. #2 of the War Dance Songs of the Ponca albums.

    Now, something else to talk about is the proper way to dance "No-sta-peh" songs, which sound similar to "trot" songs, but have no words in them. They are also called Ponca "tip-toe" songs and are danced on the balls of your feet.

    Also, from what I understand, there are not exactly Buffalo or Snake dance songs from the Ponca. The songs people know as Buffalo songs are actually "White Horse Rider" songs, which are basically lullabys sung to the daughters of chiefs. From what I've been told, some time in the 1950s or so a group of Ponca singers were host drum at a dance in New Mexico or Arizona and they were asked to sing Buffalo and Snake dance songs. Since the Buffalo and Snake dance were Southwest dances, they didn't know any, so they asked what they sounded like. Apparently, the songs sounded similar to "White Horse Rider" songs, so they used those instead.

    Leave a comment:


  • RedShield
    replied
    Ponca Trot Song #4:
    Thi thiN-ge daN, saN-tha thi-se sa-be do
    Thi thiN-ge daN, saN-tha thi-se sa-be do
    Thi thiN-ge daN, saN-tha thi-se sa-be do
    SaN-tha thi-se sa-be do, “An-pa ZhiN-ga,” thi thiN-ge daN
    AN-sa aN saN-thi-se sa-be do
    A-ni-ta-thi he on-doN-sa-bo thi he na
    Thi thiN-ge daN, saN-tha thi-se sa-be do
    English Translation:
    You are gone away, memory of you stays.
    You are gone away, memory of you stays.
    You are gone away, memory of you stays.
    Memory of you stays, “Little Elk,” you are gone away.
    Returned alive with memory of you.
    Suffering through life as you are gone.
    You are gone away, memory of you stays.

    Isn't this the trot song that Yellowhammer recorded on their Live From Hollywood Fla. CD?

    Leave a comment:


  • Gledanh Zhinga
    replied
    When "Doc" Howard (James Howard, the anthropologist, author of "The Ponca Tribe") was alive, he conveyed to me verbally that the trot dance may have been a separate society dance that was becoming defunct and was then co-opted by the hethushka society. As with all ethnologists, Howard was depending upon "informants" for his material, so this trot dance idea is up for question.

    Irene Warrior, Amos' wife and Sylvester's sister-in-law, was a very traditional and knowledgeable woman for her time. She was teasing me years ago, and saying that "None of you guys know how to trot dance." She said that she would "side-dance" it outside the circle and told me to watch. She did so, dancing in place, facing center. It would have been inappropriate for her to circle the benches. For a portion of the time, she held her arms up as though each hand was holding a bridle rein. She "trotted"; there was no drag step. Irene turned from side to side, approximately one-eighth turns.

    Abe Conklin and a handful of others used to pretend using a quirt on their right leg, two or three licks.

    Food for thought.

    "No one knows 10% of anything."

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  • LSS
    replied
    I found this down in the archives and thought I'd pull this back up for those inquiring about the order of Ponca Songs.

    Enjoy!

    Jason

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  • ANGELO
    replied
    trottin

    well, from what im told this was so sacred that you had to have the rite to even sing these songs. it was a seperate part of the hethuska arena. i may be wrong or the person who told me maybe wrong but he also told me that these songs are for the wounded who were lame and the fallin who were dead. there's a song that talks about a warrior who died in battle and it says to remember him, he died and the creator made it that way for him and all of us, and this upsets us. guess i'll let u guyz figure the song out and publish it here but i wont cuz it took me a while to get it. lol. some of the things that are being asked on here can be found by talking to elderes. im 30 yo and i still talk to my elders cuz thats where real info comes from. its good to talk about some of this stuff here so i guess talk on but it kinda takes away from talkin to elders. so in closing, i would say that trot songs are basically memorial songs that talk about the bravest of warriors. its like the purple heart songs. but im sure someone is a gona disagree with me and thats kool cuz you might have been told different. so any way you have been taught you should dance hard on any song cuz it reps our culture surving throughout the years.

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  • Historian
    replied
    Translations as I understand them to be.

    Perhaps the words to the 4 Ponca Trot songs I am aware of will give the reader an insight as to what they were originally sung for. Note, the Ponca words may be off a little as they are phonetic spelling of words sung, which is a bit different from words spoken, and the translations are as I know them to be. However, I welcome any other comments or corrections.

    Ponca Trot Song #1:
    A liN ga do, he hay no
    A liN ga do, he hay no
    A liN ga do, he hay no
    A liN ga do, he hay no
    A liN ga do, he hay no, hay a lay a yoi
    Hay nokke tay wa sho shay
    A liN ga do, he hay no
    A liN ga do, he hay no
    A liN ga do, he hay no
    A liN ga do, he hay no, hay a lay a yoi

    English Translation:
    I’m coming, I won’t be back.
    I’m coming, I won’t be back.
    I’m coming, I won’t be back.
    I’m coming, I won’t be back.
    I’m coming, I won’t be back.
    Today, enemies, bravely.
    I’m coming, I won’t be back.
    I’m coming, I won’t be back.
    I’m coming, I won’t be back.
    I’m coming, I won’t be back.

    Ponca Trot Song #2:
    “AN-ba-the-te,” wi-na thi he na
    “AN-ba-the-te,” wi-na thi he na
    “AN-ba-the-te,” wi-na thi he na
    O-ki-te ma-se, wi-na thi he na
    “AN-ba-the-te,” wi-na thi he na
    “AN-ba-the-te,” wi-na thi he na

    English Translation:
    Anbathete,” today I am alone.
    Anbathete,” today I am alone.
    Anbathete,” today I am alone.
    Enemies coming for me, today I am alone.
    Anbathete,” today I am alone.
    Anbathete,” today I am alone.

    Ponca Trot Song #3:
    O-ki-te wa-shu-she, hi thiNga ti be do
    O-we-he gaN-te, i-thiN-ga be do
    O-wa-ga shaN-te, i-thiN-ga be do
    O-we-he gaN-te, i-thiN-ga be do
    O-ki-te wa-shu-she, hi thiNga ba
    ON-ba-ka thi he na, Wa-koN-da e-ska-na, ma-shi na-ziN-te
    O-wa-ga shaN-te, i-thiN-ga be do
    O-we-he gaN-te, i-thiN-ga be do

    English Translation:
    Enemy brave, challenged me to enter the battle.
    To enter the battle, I am told.
    To go scouting, I am told.
    To enter the battle I am told.
    Enemy brave, challenged me to battle.
    It made me angry, God will not leave, I will come back.
    To enter the battle, I am told.
    To go scouting, I am told.

    Ponca Trot Song #4:
    Thi thiN-ge daN, saN-tha thi-se sa-be do
    Thi thiN-ge daN, saN-tha thi-se sa-be do
    Thi thiN-ge daN, saN-tha thi-se sa-be do
    SaN-tha thi-se sa-be do, “An-pa ZhiN-ga,” thi thiN-ge daN
    AN-sa aN saN-thi-se sa-be do
    A-ni-ta-thi he on-doN-sa-bo thi he na
    Thi thiN-ge daN, saN-tha thi-se sa-be do

    English Translation:
    You are gone away, memory of you stays.
    You are gone away, memory of you stays.
    You are gone away, memory of you stays.
    Memory of you stays, “Little Elk,” you are gone away.
    Returned alive with memory of you.
    Suffering through life as you are gone.
    You are gone away, memory of you stays.
    Last edited by Historian; 03-20-2005, 03:33 PM.

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  • Mr Bo Jangles
    replied
    Originally posted by BeadMan
    Well riding in on horses sure explains the name trot. Thanks. Does anyone know the Ponca word for trot songs? is it litterally translated as "trot?"
    Isn't it "Sassasa" or "Sessesa"?

    Something like that....I think it kinda means to "trot", or at least, I've heard that word used when speaking about Trot Songs in particular.

    Leave a comment:


  • Historian
    replied
    "Little Elk" Ponca Trot Song

    Originally posted by Fat Albert
    I am reminded that one of those Ponca Trot songs speaks about passing on those traditions. Something about an elder to the youth asking what they will do when he is gone. I am probably wrong but that was what I was taught.
    Howdy Albert,
    Sounds like you might be referring to the "Little Elk" Trot Song. The meaning is a little bit different as you can see below. The overall meaning refers to the Ponca warrior "Little Elk", who died in battle. The composer of the song is saying to "Little Elk" that even though you a gone away, the memory of you stays. Though I returned alive from the battle, I will suffer the rest of my life because you are gone.

    In Ponca it is sung like this:

    Thi thinge dan, santha thise sabe do
    Thi thinge dan, santha thise sabe do
    Thi thinge dan, santha thise sabe do
    Santha thise sabe do, "Anpa Zhinga", thi thinge dan
    Ansa an santhise sabe do
    Anitathi he ondonsabo thi he na
    Thi thinge dan, santha thise sabe do

    The translation is:

    You are gone away, memory of you stays
    You are gone away, memory of you stays
    You are gone away, memory of you stays
    Memory of you stays, "Little Elk", you are gone away
    Returned alive with memory of you
    Suffering through life as you are gone
    You are gone away, memory of you stays

    Leave a comment:


  • Fat Albert
    replied
    Good Stuff

    Thanks everyone for the good stuff. I am reminded that one of those Ponca Trot songs speaks about passing on those traditions. Something about an elder to the youth asking what they will do when he is gone. I am probably wrong but that was what I was taught. What a good example of that in this discussion. I learned a lot with this! Thank you.

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  • PoncaPride
    replied
    I'm reading all the comments but not saying anything. I'm proud of being Ponca but whatever you believe or what you think you know, read the comment made by Abe Conklin. I agree with his statement. Good to know that there are those of you out there that want to know and ask about these sort of things cause that's how you learn. I still don't like to see dancers using our buffalo dance songs for a crow hop.
    Last edited by PoncaPride; 01-03-2006, 12:09 PM.

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  • WhoMe
    replied
    Originally posted by BeadMan
    Well riding in on horses sure explains the name trot. Thanks. Does anyone know the Ponca word for trot songs? is it litterally translated as "trot?"
    __


    If I weren't Indian . . . "trot dance" would have a whole 'nother meaning!


    *L



    j/k

    Leave a comment:


  • Sharky
    replied
    :karate:

    I had been told that the trot dance is the warrior returning from battle. He is tired, possibly wounded, and zig zags to avoid being tracked. Just some thoughts on what I had been told in the past.

    Leave a comment:


  • BeadMan
    replied
    Well riding in on horses sure explains the name trot. Thanks. Does anyone know the Ponca word for trot songs? is it litterally translated as "trot?"

    Leave a comment:

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