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  • tail dances

    just wondering if there is any PONCA bros out there who can explain to me what TAIL DANCES are...i have been singing southern style now for awhile and would like to go to oklahoma where this style of singing comes from..But one thing out here in cali there are no tail dances so woud one of you PONCA bros please help it would be very helpfull and appreciatede thank you and many AHOs...

  • #2
    I am not Ponca but I am a member of one of the four groups given permission by the Ponca tribe to hold a hethuska. There is a dance held in Cali, the first weekend in march. The head singer for the dance is Henry Collins. PM me if you would like any other information....................TMS
    If I do not know the answer someone else will!!!!
    Also forgive me, this system does not have a spell check so forgive the bad spelling

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    • #3
      Last edited by okndnman; 03-11-2006, 08:56 PM.

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      • #4
        Okndnman,

        Can you tell me who the Poncas gave the dance to? Just want to see if we know the same history.

        As for non-indians participating in anyway, even if married into it...I disagree. I agree that alot of history and tradition has been given away by the wrong people, for wrong reasons but there are some folks (non-indian) that take with way of life to heart and live it on a daily basis. What if they have children - are the kids allowed to participate? What about those with CDIBs that read 1/252 - do they count as native?

        I agree that too many non-natives are participating, some having paid big bucks for the "right" and then becoming instant indians. Then there are those that are just fools. I've personally seen indians that don't have a clue as to what they are doing and why! But what about those that are sincere and believe in these ways.

        Maybe this should be a new thread?

        Comment


        • #5
          thank you guys for your response i can see we will be going some where with this one...what im interested in is the protacall during a tail dance is there a head man dancer?? what i seen was that after the song was over everoe sat down than the drum sang another tail on the song everyone got p an danced...seemed cool just trying to understand...

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          • #6
            No Head Man the Whip man is in charge where we come from.

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            • #7
              tails

              If 50 years counts as instant, count me in. I was taught that only tail dancers and those that want to giveaway, dance the tail. Have seen this at most hethuska.

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              • #8
                I HAVE DANCED A FEW ILONSCHKA S (SP?). I HAVE BEEN ASKED TO HELP BY FILLING IN AS A TAILDANCER, ONE OF MY GREATEST MOMENTS. A TRUE HONOR. THE WA SHA SHE (OSAGE) PEOPLE WERE ONE GROUP TO CARRY ON THE ILONSCHKA(HETHUSKA). WE HAVE 3 DANCES HOMINY, GREYHORSE, AND OF COURSE PAHUSKA. I BELIEVE THE COMANCHES HAVE ONE IN LAWTON OK. I ATTENDED AN APACHE FORMAL DANCE IN LAWTON AS WELL. I WAS ON THE PONCA BENCH WITH SOME PONCA FRIENDS. ANYONE ELSE THAT DANCES THIS DANCE IS UNKNOWN TO ME.
                BOB

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                • #9
                  otoes and omahas also have the tail dance.so it is a cermonial of other tribes not just poncas and osages.otoes even have there own edoshka songs,osages barrow a lot from the poncas as far as music goes just givin a little more about other people who do this
                  john arkeketa

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                  • #10
                    I WAS TOLD THAT THE PONCAS GAVE US THE DRUM. THE DRUM KEEPER IS RESPONSIBLE FOR MAINTAINING THESE SONGS (DRUM). I ALSO BELEIVE THAT PONCAS COME DOWN TO SING WITH THE DRUM KEEPERS. THE OSAGE PEOPLE ARE GREAT KEEPERS OF THIS TRADITION. WE HAVE SOMEWHAT PERSONALIZED THIS TRADITION TO BE OSAGE. WE DO HAVE THE THREE DANCES. HOMINY, GRAYHORSE, AND PAHUSKA.
                    BOB

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                    • #11
                      Just my opinion, for what it is worth(?)

                      Like luvstraightdancrs, I, too agree in many of the same things for the same reasons. I am 1/32 Navajo/Apache, 1/32 Mexican, and the rest is English/Irish. Mind you this method of measuring geneology is totally unreasonable because what a person inherits from his or her ancestors cannot be determined solely by simple mathamatics. It is just one more act of idiocy conducted by this lands dominant government and later adopted by the peoples.
                      When I chose to follow Straight Dancing as MY way of self expression and life I was much older than most. I chose never to use a Tail Stick for one explicit reason. I am not a part of the Hethuska and therefore I have no right, hence my companion will always be my Mirror Board. I pray this minor action by one person will give hope to the Ponca and example to others.

                      Originally posted by luvstraightdancrs
                      Okndnman,

                      Can you tell me who the Poncas gave the dance to? Just want to see if we know the same history.

                      As for non-indians participating in anyway, even if married into it...I disagree. I agree that alot of history and tradition has been given away by the wrong people, for wrong reasons but there are some folks (non-indian) that take with way of life to heart and live it on a daily basis. What if they have children - are the kids allowed to participate? What about those with CDIBs that read 1/252 - do they count as native?

                      I agree that too many non-natives are participating, some having paid big bucks for the "right" and then becoming instant indians. Then there are those that are just fools. I've personally seen indians that don't have a clue as to what they are doing and why! But what about those that are sincere and believe in these ways.

                      Maybe this should be a new thread?
                      ^v^

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I just got back form Ponca spring dance this past weekend. The music was great and so was the dancing. I really had a great time. One thing that surprizes me is that the Poncas go and sing for the Osages. But why do the osages not come to the Ponca dance. I only saw one osage there.

                        Any ways there are some other tribes that have hethuskas to. The Pawnees and the Ho Chunks have dances too.
                        If I do not know the answer someone else will!!!!
                        Also forgive me, this system does not have a spell check so forgive the bad spelling

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I KNOW THAT THE OSAGES HAVE A VISITORS BENCH WHERE ANYONE CAN SIT THAT IS NOT DANCING FOR ONE OF THE OSAGE VILLAGES.
                          I BELIEVE THAT ANY STRAIGHT DANCER IS WELCOME. JUST TELL THE WHIP MAN YOU ARE A VISITOR.
                          BOB

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                          • #14
                            Earlier above, someone asked who all the Heluska had been given to. In the late 60's Sylvester Warrior, who reorganized the modern Heluska, gave the dance to a non-indian California group, which is now called California Hethuska Society. He also gave it to the Comanches, who called theirs the Comanche War Dance Society. After Sylvester passed, Jonas Steel became NudaHonga and did not pass it to anyone. After Jonas Steel passed, Abraham Conklin became NudaHonga. During his tenure as NudaHonga he gave the dance to 3 other non-indian groups after discussing it with the Ponca Elders. These elders(Simon Eagle and David Buffalohead) told Abe that these men who had the dance would be Hethuska and not Hobbyists or Whiteboys or what ever. During this same tenure, Abe also gave the dance to another group of Comanches, called Bighorse society, and also gave it back to other tribes who had lost it such as the Kaw etc. The elders stipulated that the dance would not be given to non-indians again. If the new Hethuska men could not keep it alive it would not go back to them. It had been given to these other people in all 4 directions and it was all their responsibilityto keep it alive and to follow those ways. Since the elders of the Ponca had counseled with Abe and probably with Sylvester, and because they own the dance, they are within their rights to pass it to whomever they wish. There are some within the tribe that disagree with the presence of whites at the dance, but when the decisiion was made, the elders were doing what they thought best for the tribe. In my observance of the growth of these societies and the charities they support , I think those elders were right and were far sighted. Just my 2 cents worth

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by travelingmocs
                              Any ways there are some other tribes that have hethuskas to. The Pawnees and the Ho Chunks have dances too. [/B]
                              Since when do the Ho-Chunk have a hethuska? Are you talking Nebraska Winnebago or Wisconsin Ho-Chunk?

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