Dancing/Singing

[tribaltagz]

I was always taught either you sing or dance. You don't sit at the drum if you're dressed to dance. BTW I'm from Oklahoma (got no one 4 my own so I come here lookin' fer ya.... aye!) and so I'm talking about southern singing. My unc Sonny Waters is Ponca. But dang nowadays I see some drums where EVERY singer is also dressed out to dance. What is protocol for other folks???

[Fast Buck]

evolution?

Yeah. And some of these singer/dancers get points for not dancing in during the grand entries too. It used to be that singers sang and dancers danced, but now some of them sing and dance. Kind of tough on a dancer trying to get contest points against singer/dancers who seem to get points just for singing and entering only the contest dances. While a dancer is doing all he can to get points by being in all of the grand entries, intertribals, and specials, only to be beaten by a singer/dancer who apears only in the contests. I've been there. Where will this evolution take us?

[WhoMe]

I was always taught either you sing or dance. You don't sit at the drum if you're dressed to dance. BTW I'm from Oklahoma (got no one 4 my own so I come here lookin' fer ya.... aye!) and so I'm talking about southern singing. My unc Sonny Waters is Ponca. But dang nowadays I see some drums where EVERY singer is also dressed out to dance. What is protocol for other folks???

Tribal,


I think Oklahoma is one of the last holdouts where normally there are no dancers in regalia at the center drum.

I think when Oklahoma drums travel as a host drum, some include dancers/singers.

Times are a changin'. It won't be long when the older generation no longer control the southern center drum. It won't be long until it becomes common for dancer's to sit and sing at the southern center drum..... and nothing is said.

[powwowbum49]

And what a sad day that will be!!!

[hobbs49]

Times are a changin'. It won't be long when the older generation no longer control the southern center drum. It won't be long until it becomes common for dancer's to sit and sing at the southern center drum..... and nothing is said.

Man, that's kind of pessimistic. I guess I always figured that there is/will be a continuum of singers of all ages and I'd think that as the "old" elders left us, "new" elders would step in to keep the traditions alive.

[tribaltagz]

sad times.....

That's sad to think that some day all those old folks who maintain a strict drum will be gone. I was at Crow Fair last year and during grand entry a southern drum had the next song, so you saw all these guys running out of the arena in their dance clothes to make it to their drum for their song in rotation!
Also, on a related note, what about your drum singing your contest song? That always seemed a little weird to me for a guy who both sings and contests to get a song from his own drum. Seems like that would create an advantage, especially if they sing some kind of trick song that their own drum composed or some obscure song no one else has heard. What are everyone's thoughts on this??

[WhoMe]

..what about your drum singing your contest song? That always seemed a little weird to me for a guy who both sings and contests to get a song from his own drum. Seems like that would create an advantage, especially if they sing some kind of trick song that their own drum composed or some obscure song no one else has heard. What are everyone's thoughts on this??

tribal,

*L I have a good anecdote to address your question...

We were host drum along with Mystic River at a college powwow. One of Mystic River's singers was a fancy dancer and I was also singing and fancy dancing.

A tie came up in our division. The emcee announced that I and the Mystic River dancer were in this tie. For our songs we would have to dance to two songs, one from Mystic R and one from my drum.

First song was Mystic River. The second song was us. The drum I sing with started a song that I composed called "The Ultimate." The ultimate has 3 stops. The first time through goes super fast and slows down to a slow beat before stopping at the end. The rest of the song is loaded with ruffle dance, chicken dance, crow hop and fancy dance drum beats.

During this song, I forgot about the quick stops and overstepped. While the other fancy dancer hit every stop.

Needless to say .... winning second place was not bad!

[50cal]

LMAO!!!........yeah that would suck messing up on your own song........but I know which dancer and sogn you talking about.........both awesome...............

[tribaltagz]

thank you

I get what you're saying.... either you know them or you don't. I know when I'm not at the drum and just dancing and my uncle's drum get's the song they always sing an old Ponca song with a trick ending because he knows I know those songs.

[[]FlyByNyte[]]

We have several members on our drum that dance, and pretty much covers all categories. and like you whome, these guys KNOW or songs well... and will still miss the trick stops. It really doesnt matter who sings the song, or if you composed the song... things still can go the wrong way



Whats worse than that is guys not from your group requesting certain songs for their contest or even specials. or telling you to sing it a certain way so they have the upper hand.

Honestly i dont mind when we dont have a song picked out yet... but sometimes we have a song picked and gone over and ready to sing... then they want you to change to something they know...

[HappyIndianGirl]

Hey I know what you mean. Dealing with head staff can rattle your brain lol. Well when we drum people aren't use to our music. They approach us constantly and tell us to drum their style. But you see we are California Chumash. We drum in our language but the beats are the same as yours just different words and sound. We have tried to be a Guest Drum several times at Pow-Wows in the area. But people don't really like us drumming and won't dance to our songs. Even when the Pow-Wow is on our own land lol. We are really good people say and they love our songs. They just don't like us guesting. Only during dinner break do we get to drum. And even that's an issue lol. They would tell us we would get an hour and then without us knowing they would give our spot to someone else or cut us short to fifteen minutes. We were told once that our people were forced to learn the Pow-Wow ways lol. Pow-Wows are getting too political lol. I agree with what you say. Nothing ever goes as you plan lol. Life is full of surprises. One after another. We always have a list of songs we would sing and backup songs too. We would get the vibe of our surroundinds and then pick which songs we would play for that minute. Whether it be a power song or healing song or a fun song. It all comes together. Just make sure your having fun while playing and smile lol. Where are you from? I would love to hear your drum. And good luck in the future. Aho!

[HappyIndianGirl]

Yeah. And some of these singer/dancers get points for not dancing in during the grand entries too. It used to be that singers sang and dancers danced, but now some of them sing and dance. Kind of tough on a dancer trying to get contest points against singer/dancers who seem to get points just for singing and entering only the contest dances. While a dancer is doing all he can to get points by being in all of the grand entries, intertribals, and specials, only to be beaten by a singer/dancer who apears only in the contests. I've been there. Where will this evolution take us?

Ihave a question for you. When will the contests stop playing favortism. I've noticed that in the last two years the same winners win almost every Pow-wow. It seems to me that some pow-wows are rigged so certain dancers win. And it also seems like the same judges are picked. Why? I've heard people talk and their response is that if someone isn't picked then that family would no longer support that pow-wow. And neither would their friends. So to me if they picked someone else then they're afraid noone of importance would support their Pow-wow. So when will it be a fair contest? My kids dance and through all the pow-wows we've been to only one of my sons has won in three years. And we attend a lot of them. Fairness needs to be dealt with. Anyways make sure your having fun and smile lol. Aho!

[Joe's Dad]

Hey I know what you mean. Dealing with head staff can rattle your brain lol. Well when we drum people aren't use to our music. They approach us constantly and tell us to drum their style. But you see we are California Chumash. We drum in our language but the beats are the same as yours just different words and sound. We have tried to be a Guest Drum several times at Pow-Wows in the area. But people don't really like us drumming and won't dance to our songs. Even when the Pow-Wow is on our own land lol. We are really good people say and they love our songs. They just don't like us guesting. Only during dinner break do we get to drum. And even that's an issue lol. They would tell us we would get an hour and then without us knowing they would give our spot to someone else or cut us short to fifteen minutes. We were told once that our people were forced to learn the Pow-Wow ways lol. Pow-Wows are getting too political lol. I agree with what you say. Nothing ever goes as you plan lol. Life is full of surprises. One after another. We always have a list of songs we would sing and backup songs too. We would get the vibe of our surroundinds and then pick which songs we would play for that minute. Whether it be a power song or healing song or a fun song. It all comes together. Just make sure your having fun while playing and smile lol. Where are you from? I would love to hear your drum. And good luck in the future. Aho!

Sounds like you just don't sound good. Maybe you need more practice.

You don't say if you sing Northern or Southern style. Do you know the difference?

What type of powwows do you go to that are too political?

Just where are the Chumash located?

[Joe's Dad]

Ihave a question for you. When will the contests stop playing favortism. I've noticed that in the last two years the same winners win almost every Pow-wow. It seems to me that some pow-wows are rigged so certain dancers win. And it also seems like the same judges are picked. Why? I've heard people talk and their response is that if someone isn't picked then that family would no longer support that pow-wow. And neither would their friends. So to me if they picked someone else then they're afraid noone of importance would support their Pow-wow. So when will it be a fair contest? My kids dance and through all the pow-wows we've been to only one of my sons has won in three years. And we attend a lot of them. Fairness needs to be dealt with. Anyways make sure your having fun and smile lol. Aho!

Are you saying powwows in your area play favoritism because your children don't win?

[cherokee_grassdance9]

I was always taught either you sing or dance. You don't sit at the drum if you're dressed to dance. BTW I'm from Oklahoma (got no one 4 my own so I come here lookin' fer ya.... aye!) and so I'm talking about southern singing. My unc Sonny Waters is Ponca. But dang nowadays I see some drums where EVERY singer is also dressed out to dance. What is protocol for other folks???

Sonny is a good guy i grew up going to powwows and 49's that he sings at. He is almost like an uncle to me lol. My family has a powwow in Missouri he has always sung at in Sedalia. So i know exactly what you are saying about the drum because I have never seen him or anyone he sings with be dressed out at the drum. But I never realized it was out of tradition, so thank you for bringing up this topic.