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  • #31
    Hobbs and Kiyaanii,

    There just aren't a whole lot of southern singers over 60 singing on a regular basis anymore. It is this base of singers that were/are the teachers and cultural repositories for song interpretation.

    The clear majority of southern singers are younger than 40. It is these singers that are pumping out new songs each new powwow season.

    I can equate powwow songs to the popular music. In the 40's big band music was popular. In the 50's rock and roll was born. The 70's disco. 80's rap and so on. Each generation has it's own genre of evolution in any given era. Some of the genre carries over to future generations, but the majority of it is replaced by something new to appeal to younger people.

    Well, the same is true with powwow music.

    It evolves.
    Powwows will continue to evolve in many directions. It is inevitable.

    Comment


    • #32
      Yeah, kinda what I figured. And it makes sense. But the difference from (most) popular music is that a lot of the old war dance songs also keep a lot of the stories or history too, or so I've been told. So I would guess that those songs and family songs will stand a better chance to survive the ages; or at least hopefully so.
      "It doesn't really matter, they don't know any better anyway."

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by hobbs49 View Post
        Yeah, kinda what I figured. And it makes sense. But the difference from (most) popular music is that a lot of the old war dance songs also keep a lot of the stories or history too, or so I've been told. So I would guess that those songs and family songs will stand a better chance to survive the ages; or at least hopefully so.
        WhoMe...

        So is it safe to say that many young singers are not composing songs (or not having the inspiration to do so) with words in them?

        LSS
        To get a true picture of your purpose in life, you only get the whole picture when you listen with your mind, your ears and your heart. This way The Creator has a direct connection with you and only you...no outside interference.

        When you follow the will of IT that created you, understanding that your purpose is not for you...but for IT and all that IT has created, there can be no wrong except failure to be obedient. Only then do we jeopardize the gifts we are given.

        Its not the final destination that defines us, rather the journey taken!

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by hobbs49 View Post
          Why do you think singers are moving away from the old songs?
          I think it's like WhoMe said... lots of young singers w/o the experience of the old pros....

          it's just easier to make a new song than really learn all of the protocols about those old songs.... Stuff like:

          > Is a song on the drum or not?
          > Is the song on the drum but the words aren't?
          > Is the song only to be sung in particular contexts?
          > Are the words only to be used by request of the song's owner?
          > What if the owner isn't around anymore? Then what?
          > Are you actually pronouncing the words right?
          > Do you know what the words mean?
          > Should a singer from tribe X sing a song from tribe Y? does that singer really understand all of the rules that tribe Y has for it's songs?
          > When someone requests a particular song, do you really know it? or do you have to ask around or go to the tape?
          > Do you really know enough songs? Or even a fraction of all the songs you might be called upon to sing? There's thousands of keen southern songs - family songs, individual songs, organization songs, ceremonial songs, flag songs, veterans songs, memorial songs, round dance, two step, straight intertribal songs.... sheesh, we could go on and on cause I've only hit the tip of the iceberg.

          Long story short - that's a LOT of knowledge to hold, which is why I say for many of the young guys, it's just easier to compose new songs and not really learn all of those protocols, which are only multiplied exponentially when you start talking about a multi-tribal context like in Oklahoma.
          Functionless art is simply tolerated vandalism.

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          • #35
            Shoot not me. I've had a few songs come to me..not tha best but I like singin em..meanwhile I'll sing an OLDER song before one of MY tunes anyday. Especially when them Ole' Folks are around, cuz I KNOW they like hearin them n it brings joy to their heart..see em jump n start dancing or singing shoot now THATS keen...yea so what if you have a HIT song througout pw world..TRUE respect comes from those OL ones...shoot most compositions nowadays I hear are remixes of old songs anyway..so are we makin NEW songs or just remastering old ones? Addin a little bit of snazz 2 it and there ya go a NEW generation of songs, from the last generation...
            bucwild2012

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            • #36
              Originally posted by suthernwaterbird View Post
              Shoot not me. I've had a few songs come to me..not tha best but I like singin em..meanwhile I'll sing an OLDER song before one of MY tunes anyday. Especially when them Ole' Folks are around, cuz I KNOW they like hearing them n it brings joy to their heart..see em jump n start dancing or singing shoot now THATS keen...yea so what if you have a HIT song througout pw world..TRUE respect comes from those OL ones...shoot most compositions nowadays I hear are remixes of old songs anyway..so are we makin NEW songs or just re mastering old ones? Addin a little bit of snazz 2 it and there ya go a NEW generation of songs, from the last generation...
              No this conversation starts to sound right. Sing the songs and all the ettiqite keep that up too. That is what we have to do to get the younger ones singing. We sing mostly older songs because that is where our lead singer learned them so we are safe with those the newer ones are iffy if we can get to the people that wrote them we do. Sometime my father visits OKE where he used to live, or New Mex and he gets us permission, so we try to keep up the traditions. He is 74 and Sings with us also. so I think we would pass your sniff test, Maybe our voices aren't as good as they used to be but we sure love Singing.

              This is a good conversation, and if you agree maybe we could get some songs form you that would be good to sing back east here, now that we go by all the stuff that just don't matter.

              Thanks for the good energy to all.

              Comment


              • #37
                I may get shot for jumping too far out on this limb...

                Originally posted by Str8Dancer49 View Post
                I think it's like WhoMe said... lots of young singers w/o the experience of the old pros....

                it's just easier to make a new song than really learn all of the protocols about those old songs.... Stuff like:

                > Is a song on the drum or not?
                > Is the song on the drum but the words aren't?
                > Is the song only to be sung in particular contexts?
                > Are the words only to be used by request of the song's owner?
                > What if the owner isn't around anymore? Then what?
                > Are you actually pronouncing the words right?
                > Do you know what the words mean?
                > Should a singer from tribe X sing a song from tribe Y? does that singer really understand all of the rules that tribe Y has for it's songs?
                > When someone requests a particular song, do you really know it? or do you have to ask around or go to the tape?
                > Do you really know enough songs? Or even a fraction of all the songs you might be called upon to sing? There's thousands of keen southern songs - family songs, individual songs, organization songs, ceremonial songs, flag songs, veterans songs, memorial songs, round dance, two step, straight intertribal songs.... sheesh, we could go on and on cause I've only hit the tip of the iceberg.

                Long story short - that's a LOT of knowledge to hold, which is why I say for many of the young guys, it's just easier to compose new songs and not really learn all of those protocols, which are only multiplied exponentially when you start talking about a multi-tribal context like in Oklahoma.
                BUT,...not being Ponca, Kiowa, Pawnee, Otoe, Osage, etc....I have done what I can to try my best to learn some of the old songs. As I have explained to the guys around our drum, if you're gonna sing southern, you really need to know a little bit about the Center Drum and where southern singing originated from. One should know some of the stories...and you know them by knowing the meanings/translations of the songs. Then, one begins to gain a strong confidence in themselves and it expresses itself in the way you sing...no matter who you sit besde. If you're fortunate enough...maybe you'll be gifted with a song or two here and there.

                If someone were to ask me why I sing a few Kiowa and Pawnee songs here and there...I tell them because of those whom I've learned from. Why do we sing Gourd Dance songs? Because it is the respectful thing to do if we are singing this style...and because of those whom I've learned from. Why do we sing some of those Ponca songs?....Do I need to say any more?...Ok...guess not.

                I asked an elder (actually several, but I am thinking about one in particular right now) about my gift of song comosition recently and I received a lot of encouragment. I was also told I was at the age that most composers typically begin composing songs

                The old war/men's dances have been around for such a long time. Until I know a little bit about the history of singing...particularly of the other Siouan speaking people...I can't begin to sing and do a good job.

                All I can say at this time is that I know about the histories of the southern migrations of the Siouan speakers who did relocate (for whatever reason). I have taken time to learn quite a few stories/songs. I've taken listen to the gifts I am granted! I have also taken the time to be respectful and learn about others. Everyone likes to feel at home no matter where they go. Hopefully, as a young singer like SWB, I can sing pleasing music to whomever the audience is. Hopefully, whatever their need is, it is met and fulfilled when they listen.

                As young people, it is our job to learn & hold on to much of what we can while continuing to build the rest of the path started by others...for our people. Really, the decision to do...it is really up to you!

                LSS
                To get a true picture of your purpose in life, you only get the whole picture when you listen with your mind, your ears and your heart. This way The Creator has a direct connection with you and only you...no outside interference.

                When you follow the will of IT that created you, understanding that your purpose is not for you...but for IT and all that IT has created, there can be no wrong except failure to be obedient. Only then do we jeopardize the gifts we are given.

                Its not the final destination that defines us, rather the journey taken!

                Comment

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