Singing Songs Correctly

[LSS]

I may get shot for jumping too far out on this limb...

I think it's like WhoMe said... lots of young singers w/o the experience of the old pros....

it's just easier to make a new song than really learn all of the protocols about those old songs.... Stuff like:

> Is a song on the drum or not?
> Is the song on the drum but the words aren't?
> Is the song only to be sung in particular contexts?
> Are the words only to be used by request of the song's owner?
> What if the owner isn't around anymore? Then what?
> Are you actually pronouncing the words right?
> Do you know what the words mean?
> Should a singer from tribe X sing a song from tribe Y? does that singer really understand all of the rules that tribe Y has for it's songs?
> When someone requests a particular song, do you really know it? or do you have to ask around or go to the tape?
> Do you really know enough songs? Or even a fraction of all the songs you might be called upon to sing? There's thousands of keen southern songs - family songs, individual songs, organization songs, ceremonial songs, flag songs, veterans songs, memorial songs, round dance, two step, straight intertribal songs.... sheesh, we could go on and on cause I've only hit the tip of the iceberg.

Long story short - that's a LOT of knowledge to hold, which is why I say for many of the young guys, it's just easier to compose new songs and not really learn all of those protocols, which are only multiplied exponentially when you start talking about a multi-tribal context like in Oklahoma.

BUT,...not being Ponca, Kiowa, Pawnee, Otoe, Osage, etc....I have done what I can to try my best to learn some of the old songs. As I have explained to the guys around our drum, if you're gonna sing southern, you really need to know a little bit about the Center Drum and where southern singing originated from. One should know some of the stories...and you know them by knowing the meanings/translations of the songs. Then, one begins to gain a strong confidence in themselves and it expresses itself in the way you sing...no matter who you sit besde. If you're fortunate enough...maybe you'll be gifted with a song or two here and there.

If someone were to ask me why I sing a few Kiowa and Pawnee songs here and there...I tell them because of those whom I've learned from. Why do we sing Gourd Dance songs? Because it is the respectful thing to do if we are singing this style...and because of those whom I've learned from. Why do we sing some of those Ponca songs?....Do I need to say any more?...Ok...guess not.

I asked an elder (actually several, but I am thinking about one in particular right now) about my gift of song comosition recently and I received a lot of encouragment. I was also told I was at the age that most composers typically begin composing songs

The old war/men's dances have been around for such a long time. Until I know a little bit about the history of singing...particularly of the other Siouan speaking people...I can't begin to sing and do a good job.

All I can say at this time is that I know about the histories of the southern migrations of the Siouan speakers who did relocate (for whatever reason). I have taken time to learn quite a few stories/songs. I've taken listen to the gifts I am granted! I have also taken the time to be respectful and learn about others. Everyone likes to feel at home no matter where they go. Hopefully, as a young singer like SWB, I can sing pleasing music to whomever the audience is. Hopefully, whatever their need is, it is met and fulfilled when they listen.

As young people, it is our job to learn & hold on to much of what we can while continuing to build the rest of the path started by others...for our people. Really, the decision to do...it is really up to you!

LSS

Shoot not me. I've had a few songs come to me..not tha best but I like singin em..meanwhile I'll sing an OLDER song before one of MY tunes anyday. Especially when them Ole' Folks are around, cuz I KNOW they like hearing them n it brings joy to their heart..see em jump n start dancing or singing shoot now THATS keen...yea so what if you have a HIT song througout pw world..TRUE respect comes from those OL ones...shoot most compositions nowadays I hear are remixes of old songs anyway..so are we makin NEW songs or just re mastering old ones? Addin a little bit of snazz 2 it and there ya go a NEW generation of songs, from the last generation...

No this conversation starts to sound right. Sing the songs and all the ettiqite keep that up too. That is what we have to do to get the younger ones singing. We sing mostly older songs because that is where our lead singer learned them so we are safe with those the newer ones are iffy if we can get to the people that wrote them we do. Sometime my father visits OKE where he used to live, or New Mex and he gets us permission, so we try to keep up the traditions. He is 74 and Sings with us also. so I think we would pass your sniff test, Maybe our voices aren't as good as they used to be but we sure love Singing.

This is a good conversation, and if you agree maybe we could get some songs form you that would be good to sing back east here, now that we go by all the stuff that just don't matter.

Thanks for the good energy to all.

[suthernwaterbird]

Shoot not me. I've had a few songs come to me..not tha best but I like singin em..meanwhile I'll sing an OLDER song before one of MY tunes anyday. Especially when them Ole' Folks are around, cuz I KNOW they like hearin them n it brings joy to their heart..see em jump n start dancing or singing shoot now THATS keen...yea so what if you have a HIT song througout pw world..TRUE respect comes from those OL ones...shoot most compositions nowadays I hear are remixes of old songs anyway..so are we makin NEW songs or just remastering old ones? Addin a little bit of snazz 2 it and there ya go a NEW generation of songs, from the last generation...

[Str8Dancer49]

Why do you think singers are moving away from the old songs?

I think it's like WhoMe said... lots of young singers w/o the experience of the old pros....

it's just easier to make a new song than really learn all of the protocols about those old songs.... Stuff like:

> Is a song on the drum or not?
> Is the song on the drum but the words aren't?
> Is the song only to be sung in particular contexts?
> Are the words only to be used by request of the song's owner?
> What if the owner isn't around anymore? Then what?
> Are you actually pronouncing the words right?
> Do you know what the words mean?
> Should a singer from tribe X sing a song from tribe Y? does that singer really understand all of the rules that tribe Y has for it's songs?
> When someone requests a particular song, do you really know it? or do you have to ask around or go to the tape?
> Do you really know enough songs? Or even a fraction of all the songs you might be called upon to sing? There's thousands of keen southern songs - family songs, individual songs, organization songs, ceremonial songs, flag songs, veterans songs, memorial songs, round dance, two step, straight intertribal songs.... sheesh, we could go on and on cause I've only hit the tip of the iceberg.

Long story short - that's a LOT of knowledge to hold, which is why I say for many of the young guys, it's just easier to compose new songs and not really learn all of those protocols, which are only multiplied exponentially when you start talking about a multi-tribal context like in Oklahoma.

[LSS]

Yeah, kinda what I figured. And it makes sense. But the difference from (most) popular music is that a lot of the old war dance songs also keep a lot of the stories or history too, or so I've been told. So I would guess that those songs and family songs will stand a better chance to survive the ages; or at least hopefully so.

WhoMe...

So is it safe to say that many young singers are not composing songs (or not having the inspiration to do so) with words in them?

LSS

[hobbs49]

Yeah, kinda what I figured. And it makes sense. But the difference from (most) popular music is that a lot of the old war dance songs also keep a lot of the stories or history too, or so I've been told. So I would guess that those songs and family songs will stand a better chance to survive the ages; or at least hopefully so.

[WhoMe]

Hobbs and Kiyaanii,

There just aren't a whole lot of southern singers over 60 singing on a regular basis anymore. It is this base of singers that were/are the teachers and cultural repositories for song interpretation.

The clear majority of southern singers are younger than 40. It is these singers that are pumping out new songs each new powwow season.

I can equate powwow songs to the popular music. In the 40's big band music was popular. In the 50's rock and roll was born. The 70's disco. 80's rap and so on. Each generation has it's own genre of evolution in any given era. Some of the genre carries over to future generations, but the majority of it is replaced by something new to appeal to younger people.

Well, the same is true with powwow music.

It evolves.

[kiyaanii mom]

This is just a question.....

Unless a special song is requested, isn't the choice of song completely at the discression of the person who starts it? Especially intertribals and straight contest songs.

I know some drum guys who are always trying to make new songs. And they have some good "catchy" (for lack of a better word) older songs, but they don't sing them any more. I wish they would.

I think that is why I like Southern singing because there are those songs that you hear at least once at every powwow. And it feels good to hear them.

I hope that's not too far off topic....

[hobbs49]

Fast,

For some reason, southern drums are getting away from singing old songs. The exception would be at community powwows in Oklahoma.

So I gotta ask, Why? Why do you think singers are moving away from the old songs? Do you think its always been that way, with each generation moving away from the old songs and the "good" songs from that generation become the old songs of a couple of generations down the road?

Just curious to what people think about this.

Thanks!

[WhoMe]

1 more thing you are very fortunate to know the spirits that created the songs If you know where they come from you must be very old.

Fast,

For some reason, southern drums are getting away from singing old songs. The exception would be at community powwows in Oklahoma. Each year new songs are composed by young singers. With this information, it is hard to tell who composed ALL songs.

There is really no magic or spirits associated with new compositions. Some composer was probably driving down the road, a catchy tune comes to mind and he grabs a recorder. When he gets home, he listens to the song and refines it. Next he teaches it to his buddies and Poof* a song is born!!!

getting more depressed.

Whats this "we" stuff. If I sing a song..I know where it comes from. Or I don't sing it..And ma Cohn is from Ok, not FL, but I noticed when he comes and sings, the people that sit in, when he's not around try to act CHIEF because they sat next to him. It's ridiculous. I'm sick of Florida cept for a few that are ok, but the rest pshh im good.

I say "WE" cause I listen to a lot of stuff with the older guys and when I ask an elder about a song they relate to me the many ways they have sung, and do sing, the song. If they are with different lead singers. I don't mean young either. Are they wrong?

You don't have to be from OK. or FLA, or the REZ, or whatever sing the song I will appreciate that song if you are singing with your heart and your head straight Now I have heard songs BUTCHERED, by many Drums, I have commented, and they think that I am giving them a hard time.

You know the idiots, are we really talking about them here?

For example I know an elder that changed his Family song, because he no longer wanted it in the public. I like both songs. We have permission to use both songs out of respect We don't use the song that was pulled back.

There is also not I in DRUM. so I use "WE".

1 more thing you are very fortunate to know the spirits that created the songs If you know where they come from you must be very old.

[suthernwaterbird]

Whats this "we" stuff. If I sing a song..I know where it comes from. Or I don't sing it..And ma Cohn is from Ok, not FL, but I noticed when he comes and sings, the people that sit in, when he's not around try to act CHIEF because they sat next to him. It's ridiculous. I'm sick of Florida cept for a few that are ok, but the rest pshh im good.

Again and Again

well, songs change, thats the powwow world, but people need to ask permission and sing songs right,ect. I know wat your talking about and I've seen it, duh, I live in Florida, but I've had the priveldge of singing with people who know wat they're doing, so I think they should have some guidance.

I don't disagree I think that all that etiquette should be followed. We Do. But there is a lot more to it than asking permission. When we sing and a drum sets up and doesn't respect the host we get upset. We have found over the years that if we get too upset, all the idiots come out of the woodwork. They think they are entitled to sing because they listened to a CD. Thats on them.

All I can say is judge what you see and hear. If you think you can be constructive and can help DO that. IF not just wait until a drum you can dance/liisten to comes on.

Can you imagine if the OLD Grandfathers heard some of the songs that they sung way back The way WE do them today , how they would react? All the old guys I know help me anytime I ask. Also I sang in OKI, with prominent drums that I won't name drop, and although it was a bit different it wasn't all that different They didn't criticize me and I have been asked back? Don't count us out just because we are from the northeast.

Good Drums Bad Drums

East of the Mississippi there are several groups that simply butcher songs, but think they are all that. What’s your take on groups that can’t or don’t know how to sing songs correctly? Has anyone confronted these so called "good" drums, or do you just let them be and not waste your time?

I have been singing about 15 years. I am slightly distressed about this good drum bad drum thing. I think it more depends on your attitude and actions. There is no such thing as a perfect song, or drum. Songs of our ancestors were not exact. They had inflection for language. How many times have we said we are different?
Sing and take the joy form that. When I hear a drum that I feel is not good or in not acting right, or is not trying to represent the song, I leave.

[crazytraddancer]

Who in florida knows what they're talking about...NOT SAYING THERE ISN'T anyone..but just would like to know specifically who you're referring to.

well, people from out of state of course, like Billy Evans Horse, the Kiowa tribal chairman or something like that. He's from oklahoma, pretty much everyone in Oklahoma knows him, and kinda got powwows started in Florida. When he comes to sing people come outta the woodwork, like one powwow the year before had 8 or 10 people there, the next year, he sang there and there was about 1000 or so.

I was just putting it in that if you are looking for Hokey and wanna see some rules broken, come to some of the morons over here. There are some good ones, and people who know the right way, but there are a lot of morons around. And like you said Ive seen some poor excuses for drums. Now there are a lot of good peple who know what theyre doing, but i can definately feel your pain.