Old vs New

[WhoMe]

It seems a lot has changed in southern powwow circles.

There was a time when only older singers (over 40) dominated drum circles.

Today this is just the opposite.

I was just asked yesterday if younger southern singers still pay their way to the drum or have a giveaway for such an honor.

My reply was, "a few do. But the majority of younger singers simply join a drum led by other younger singers."

In my opinion, this transition has omitted what was once tradition and protocol.

Many older singers now just sit back and watch. Even though they are still capable of singing.

Is this transition a good thing?

[CandaePrincess]

Good topic Who! I think there could be two different ways of thinking about this. I myself paid my way to go sing at the drum. I think that so many do not know the proper way to do things like, getitng put into dance, paying your way to sing, etc. That or their family never bothered to show them the correct ways. I was very lucky that both sides of my family taught me how to do things right. And it's sad that so many have no clue what to do these days.

HOWEVER.....I also think it's wonderful there are so many young people that are wanting to learn how to sing and participate. I remember being one of the youngest people at the drum before and it was neat but I was always thinking..."too bad there aren't anymore my age that like to come out here". Then a few at a time more started singing and it has just grown. Sometimes it maybe the young person doesn't have the finances to give away or pay their way and sometimes they just don't know. I think though, if they want to sing and show they are proud to be native, that's a major step.

as the saying goes....I was Indian before being Indian was cool. *L*

[chazziff]

yes this is somewhat of a double edged sword .... you want to keep the traditions going but should you shun or push away those that are unaware, for whatever reason, from continuing these traditions? it probably does have alot to do with misinformation and simple not knowing that they are suppose to "pay their way in" to the drumming circle.

then it goes back to who's fault is it? parents for not showing? or the young people for not searching or askin first? the Elders in the circle for not informing the newcomers? asking what "right" do you have for being here?

then alot of the young people do have that attitude of ... "if i want to do something .. i'll do it .. and i dont have to ask you for the "proper" "traditional" way to do it either!" ... i guess as long as you show your own children the way that was taught to you, all is well

[soopashinaab]

Same up here in da north!! More and more young gunz singin while the old skool singers sit and watch!

My cuzint tried teaching some young gunz some of those old time songs, and they got mad and started to p*** and moan about those songs being lame *** songs, and said those old songs were dead!!! Long story short... my cuzint served them their behinds on a platter!!What good is change when you lose your identity, and become just like any other NDN???

[chazziff]

Same up here in da north!! More and more young gunz singin while the old skool singers sit and watch!

My cuzint tried teaching some young gunz some of those old time songs, and they got mad and started to p*** and moan about those songs being lame *** songs, and said those old songs were dead!!! Long story short... my cuzint served them their behinds on a platter!!What good is change when you lose your identity, and become just like any other NDN???

talk about disrespectable .... all the guys i know that sing ... they respect the masters as they call em. and are honoured to be shown songs ... new and old.

on the next PMR CD ... there's songs on there with the "old school" Cree used on em ... the dialect is "different". some of the boys had to really think about how to say it and what it meant exactly ... they were shown the songs by their uncle.

[dancing bear]

that's cool that ur cousin did that.. it'd be nice if more people did that.. but it was said before that them younguns cauze a stink just cuz they want to do what they want to do...
I feel sad sometimes about that... traditions lost.. I paid my way into the circle dancing wise and only sing when asked... but I can understand the older singers sitting back and watching cuz if I was to teach someone singing and they paid me with disrespect.. why bother?
I love the oldies.... lot of power in those songs for sure...

[soopashinaab]

talk about disrespectable .... all the guys i know that sing ... they respect the masters as they call em. and are honoured to be shown songs ... new and old.

on the next PMR CD ... there's songs on there with the "old school" Cree used on em ... the dialect is "different". some of the boys had to really think about how to say it and what it meant exactly ... they were shown the songs by their uncle.

Who's PMR may I ask???

[soopashinaab]

Every now and then we get a treat and some one will sing some of those old skool songs!! It's funny though because the beat is a lot faster even by northern style standards, and hardly anybody goes out to dance cuz they can't hang!!! I like to dance old skool... no bustle!! Too many clowns out there lookin the same.

[dancing bear]

yea.. love it when they break out those old songs... they are always a good challenge to dance to.. especially as a contest song...

[WhoMe]

Here is one version of traditional protocol used in song transfer as expressed through plains Indian philosophy and protocol:

"In recording plains music, stories and historical information it is proper to pay for it and/or do something special in recognition for this transaction. This symbolically shows respect, appreciation and value for this transfer of knowledge. Some tribes are extremely formal in how they give away their songs and knowledge.

According to plains tribal customs, you had to be extremely careful if you decide to sing a song that someone else owns. You are supposed to have permission or be given the rights to sing a song that belongs to the owner of a song. In following protocol, there will be misunderstandings if this is not followed. Preferably a public acknowlegment through the exchange of gifts should take place so that others will witness and have knowledge of this transfer.

If permission is asked to record a song for continual use and the owner agrees to this transfer, the person making this request should respectfully make a gift giving gesture in recognition of receiving the song.

Through this act of gift giving or hosting a feast for the transfer of a song, the symbolic rights to sing a song is satisfied and is culturally approved."


WhoMe
Moving History: The Evolution of the Powwow (2nd edition)

[LSS]

It seems a lot has changed in southern powwow circles.

There was a time when only older singers (over 40) dominated drum circles.

Today this is just the opposite.

I was just asked yesterday if younger southern singers still pay their way to the drum or have a giveaway for such an honor.

My reply was, "a few do. But the majority of younger singers simply join a drum led by other younger singers."

In my opinion, this transition has omitted what was once tradition and protocol.

Many older singers now just sit back and watch. Even though they are still capable of singing.

Is this transition a good thing?

You know...I was sitting and thinking about the very same thing over the weekend. Great minds must think alike!

I'm gonna attempt to answer your questions/thoughts here... What I see is that the younger generations are getting a good deal of experience while traveling with other young singers. Some of these guys may call themselves a group and then the next year they may be singing with someone totally different.

Paying their way?.?.?.?.Why do I pay someone who knows just as little as I do? Why do I receive gift from someone who knows just as much as I do...maybe even in a different capacity? The other thing I question is whether or not some of the younger guys are being humble as to say "Hey, I still have a lot to learn and right now I don't feel it is my place to accept these things as if I were my grandfather. It is always my place to learn, therefore I sit here at the drum whether or not I fulfilling the role of Head Singer, and I do what I am to do.

I think this question should and could only be answered by those who have the opportunity to sing at the Center Drum every weekend. I, myself and several others outside of Oklahoma, do not have that consistent opportunity.

I'll be taking a trip to Oklahoma again soon and I'll have some of my family with me. The first time I visited Oklahoma, I took a gift to the Center Drum and this time I will do the same...as will everyone else.

Have I covered everything?...Or am I just rambling?


LSS

[handgame_native]

I found a pic from around 1990 of a princess election - the center drum(s) doesn't look like there was hardly too many under 40, and that includes the lady singers.

miss seeing my grandpa's/uncles sitting around the drum and dancing.

[WhoMe]

Paying their way?.?.?.?.Why do I pay someone who knows just as little as I do? Why do I receive gift from someone who knows just as much as I do...maybe even in a different capacity?

LSS,

You bring up a VERY GOOD point.

Many Indians adopt powwow dancing and singing in areas that don't have experienced powwow people to ask for advice.

How ARE you supposed to know right from wrong, or powwow protocol if you don't have foundation or powwow tradition to learn from?

[suthernwaterbird]

And who are you supposed to learn from...There aren't too many elders, that will share these traditions even with their own kin, just because they weren't brought up into it. a lot of them believe you put 100% into it or nothing..well that is what they would like to see..but then again no one is perfect except that One man...but on the contrary there are many of them ol folks that are looking for someone to share their knowledge and experience with, and there is no one around to listen...then the ones around them..decide they want to learn when its too late...and kick their selves, because you don't know what you have, until you lose it.

[stymee]

very good topic

What do you sound like and are the dancers enjoying themselves (you know, dancing like there is no one watching). These days a lot of new (southern) singers think they don't need to listen to what older ones have to say or suggest so they don't sound right, and if you don't know what "sounding right" is, then maybe singin isn't in you. Sorry if that sounds mean but.........tuff sh*t. There are too many who don't SING, they just sit and look for who's looking at them. You take up space for another who wants to SING but won't come out because you're there are all these sitters and drummers. Beating the drum so hard you have to switch arms because your one arm gets tired, in the MIDDLE of one song,,,,pitiful. Just SING, SING like your grandparents are still dancing in the arena, SING as if you were just told the sherrif has a warrant out for you and he's sitting on the benches waiting for you, SING so your girlfriend who is at the car snaggin on your best buddy can hear you, SING damnit SING.