A "recall" on songs...

[LSS]

A few friends and I have recently been discussing the notion of how people are currently trying to reclaim song from the drum. Some of these songs are family songs and some belong to individuals. The one that comes to mind is that of Old Man No-Ear.

I'm just curious to find out if you all have heard of this "recall" and if so, what songs? Also, what is the reason behind it all? Is it that some are getting these songs and butchering them? Or is it a matter of families feeling like they want their relative at rest?

There was a resolution passed by the Ponca Nation some years ago that, as I understand <and I could be wrong>, called for Ponca songs not to be recorded and pulled from the market. Was part of this resolution prompted/driven by the "recall" of individual/family songs?

[kiyaanii mom]

Interesting.....

Once a song is put out there.... I'm not sure if it would even be possible to recall it.

Maybe you could invent one of those mind erasers that would completely erase the song from everyone mind who ever heard it... I am sorta joking, but half serious too...

Or I should say, Maybe the "offended Party" should invent.....

[Joe's Dad]

Interesting.....

Once a song is put out there.... I'm not sure if it would even be possible to recall it.

Maybe you could invent one of those mind erasers that would completely erase the song from everyone mind who ever heard it... I am sorta joking, but half serious too...

Or I should say, Maybe the "offended Party" should invent.....

Agent J and Agent K have one. They work for MIB!

As far as the songs, once it's recorded people will sing them. I don't think all people in this world are honest and respectful.

[kiyaanii mom]

Agent J and Agent K have one. They work for MIB!

As far as the songs, once it's recorded people will sing them. I don't think all people in this world are honest and respectful.

Is it long, and wooden and similar to a base ball bat????

[Joe's Dad]

Is it long, and wooden and similar to a base ball bat????

No,. It's little and fits in your purse or pocket.

[tribaltagz]

song &quot;ownership&quot;

I think that this is one of the problems with our technological age advancing faster than our culture can cope. Used to be, when a song was sung or passed, the story that went along with it passed as well. You knew who the song was made by, what it's purpose was, who it was composed for, etc..... but nowadays you just buy a CD and listen and learn it, but you don't often learn the where's and whyfor's...... So I guess I have two related questions to this.
I've heard it two ways. One is that if a drum group puts a song on CD, then they're putting it on the drum for anyone to use. The otheris that regardless of where it's recorded that song still should only be sung by those who were given the rights. So what's the right answer?

The other question is..... what's the appropriate way to handle a situation when you hear one of your fanmily songs sung? Again, I've seen a couple things happen. One, the family would give money to the person who started that song because by singing that song they're honoring that person, whether they realized it or not. the other way I've seen it handled is someone gets all B-u-t-t-sore about it and causes a big scene and gives the singer the tongue lashing of their life. Again, what is the right way to handle a situation like that?

To me, the appropriate thing to do would be that if you know the person who sang that song doesn't know its origins, take them some money, explain the song and why it was composed and leave it in a good way. But maybe I'm missing something.

[Josiah]

I think that this is one of the problems with our technological age advancing faster than our culture can cope. Used to be, when a song was sung or passed, the story that went along with it passed as well. You knew who the song was made by, what it's purpose was, who it was composed for, etc..... but nowadays you just buy a CD and listen and learn it, but you don't often learn the where's and whyfor's...... So I guess I have two related questions to this.
I've heard it two ways. One is that if a drum group puts a song on CD, then they're putting it on the drum for anyone to use. The otheris that regardless of where it's recorded that song still should only be sung by those who were given the rights. So what's the right answer?

The other question is..... what's the appropriate way to handle a situation when you hear one of your fanmily songs sung? Again, I've seen a couple things happen. One, the family would give money to the person who started that song because by singing that song they're honoring that person, whether they realized it or not. the other way I've seen it handled is someone gets all B-u-t-t-sore about it and causes a big scene and gives the singer the tongue lashing of their life. Again, what is the right way to handle a situation like that?

To me, the appropriate thing to do would be that if you know the person who sang that song doesn't know its origins, take them some money, explain the song and why it was composed and leave it in a good way. But maybe I'm missing something.

I too have seen it both ways and it gets even more dicey with gourd songs I was at a dance in Oklahoma city last year and somebody at the drum started a song that the next thing I knew several women were scrambling to put on shawls and gathering things together
Found out that the guy did not realize that the song was a family song!
But hey it was taken care of right then and there!
They did an inpromptu giveaway on the spot...

[LSS]

I think that this is one of the problems with our technological age advancing faster than our culture can cope. Used to be, when a song was sung or passed, the story that went along with it passed as well. You knew who the song was made by, what it's purpose was, who it was composed for, etc..... but nowadays you just buy a CD and listen and learn it, but you don't often learn the where's and whyfor's...... So I guess I have two related questions to this.
I've heard it two ways. One is that if a drum group puts a song on CD, then they're putting it on the drum for anyone to use. The otheris that regardless of where it's recorded that song still should only be sung by those who were given the rights. So what's the right answer?

The other question is..... what's the appropriate way to handle a situation when you hear one of your fanmily songs sung? Again, I've seen a couple things happen. One, the family would give money to the person who started that song because by singing that song they're honoring that person, whether they realized it or not. the other way I've seen it handled is someone gets all B-u-t-t-sore about it and causes a big scene and gives the singer the tongue lashing of their life. Again, what is the right way to handle a situation like that?

To me, the appropriate thing to do would be that if you know the person who sang that song doesn't know its origins, take them some money, explain the song and why it was composed and leave it in a good way. But maybe I'm missing something.

I think...and I could be way off base here...but is it possible that an underlying issue that is sparking all of this is that there are some people who are singing these songs at inappropriate times/places?

Hmmm...I guess that leads to another question...where/when is it appropriate? Maybe the singer knew about the song and felt moved or that it was a good to sing it.

[tribaltagz]

I think you're right

I think that IS part of the issue. People are learning the songs but young singers, especially ones who don't have someone knowledgeable with them to instruct them, will sing them at innapropriate times. I've seen it happen many times lately and even at my uncle's drum, someone will bust out a song at the improper time. But, we have someone there to tell us of the mistake and insure we don't make that mistake again. So, how do we fix this problem? I'm not sure that "recalling" the songs is the answer. To me, it's a bit like shutting the chicken house door after the fox is already inside. These songs are already out there. Even on this site you can hear alot of the songs in question. I think a little more openness and education might be a better solution. Pow wow is beginning to become a melting pot of cultures, especially here in Oklahoma. Now that big money is involved people are "jumping" on the bandwagon and starting drums, or switching to the latest hot style of dance.
I hear people complain all the time about non-natives appropriating this or that, but I see it just as often and with just as little respect or care among our own Native folks. Is this trend going to change?? I don't know. Pow wows tend to disenfranchise non-plains peoples. When's the last time you saw a woman win a big contest in her traditional Navajo, Choctaw, Cherokee style dress? Pow-wow is a way for ALL native people to come together so until there's more equality you'll see more and more "pirating" of plains ways. (or maybe parroting would be a better word) I feel fortunate to have adoptive relatives and in-laws who have dressed me and given me rights to certain things, but I also have a youth group where I teach our young people both "stomp" dance ways as well as pow-wow ways at the drum and dancing in an attempt to get them away from the negative influences in our community. BUT, since most are Cherokee, they don't have rights to be in that arena. So how do we deal with the problem???
Sorry..... that kind of ranted into a strange place, but I think it's all connected.

Solutions:
#1 Do away with big money dances and go back to the old style community dances.
#2 require drums and dancers to dress or sing according to their tribe. Will knock out alot of NDN folks.
#3 Spend more time educating and less time griping about this person or that person not doing something correctly. If you see someone making a mistake according to your teachings, take them aside and offer to teach them something.

just my humble opinion but I'd really like some insight on what others are seeing or how we deal with this situation. How do we maintain tribal uniqueness in an intertribal setting like a big money pow-wow when not all tribes or tribal styles are treated fairly?

[WhoMe]

There are a lot of scenarios and a lot of answers to these questions.

Having sat at the center drum the majority of my life there are considerations that are not taken into count. As is often the case, the head singer will point to a certain singer and say "you got one?" Normally you shake your head yes and take off with whatever comes out *L This is where many family or individual songs come out. One obvious reason this happens is many beautiful and popular songs belong to families or individuals and were made especially with them in mind.


Now it is an obligation to own a song. If your song is sung, normally you are obligated to dance and give to the person who started the song. One of the most popular songs there is belonged to Butch Toehay, then Jeff Toehay, then passed down to Chad Toehay. I see Chad's family dancing at a lot of powwows when his song iis sung - honoring the ownership of his song.

This is where some trouble lies. Some individual songs are to be sung only when the owner requests them to be sung. Thus they are not placed on the drum. A novice singer, someone who is unexpectantly called upon to start a song or someone who is trying to bring back an "oldie but goodie" may accidently start someones' song. I also know of songs that were buried along with the owner and never to be sung again.

I can see where someone can either be angry if it was not started without permission and also when someone else can be totally honored to hear their song sung at a powwow.

My dad has a lot of old intertribal songs on reel-to-reel format taken at powwows in the 50's and 60's. I can almost bet that there are family and individual songs included on those tapes.

[kiyaanii mom]

Solutions:
#1 Do away with big money dances and go back to the old style community dances.
#2 require drums and dancers to dress or sing according to their tribe. Will knock out alot of NDN folks.
#3 Spend more time educating and less time griping about this person or that person not doing something correctly. If you see someone making a mistake according to your teachings, take them aside and offer to teach them something.

just my humble opinion but I'd really like some insight on what others are seeing or how we deal with this situation. How do we maintain tribal uniqueness in an intertribal setting like a big money pow-wow when not all tribes or tribal styles are treated fairly?

Your Solutions are impossible, therefore not viable.

How about you develop the "True NDN Powwow Police" force. And go to all the powwows around the country and make them all perfect...

Ooops, that's not viable either....

[WhoMe]

#3 Spend more time educating and less time griping about this person or that person not doing something correctly. If you see someone making a mistake according to your teachings, take them aside and offer to teach them something.

tribal,

I've been invited to be a guest on Native America Calling this Friday. It will all depend on if I get permission from our public affairs department. I think the subject is "powwows gone bad." In talking with the producer, it looks like this might be a very interesting subject!

One of the items for discussion pertains to your #3.

[steelemagnolia63]

I think that the pan-ndn powwow thing has become so much a part of our communities that there is no way that we can "close the barn door" this horse and all his buddies are already running down the road...

If you hear a song that you know belongs to a certain family or individaul then slip up to the drum and ask them if they have permission to drum that song....maybe they do maybe they don't but it never hurts to ask.... then go from there....

[Coyot_In_The_House]

Well........

There's a big ceiling on this one.....I always remember what the Old Man said: "When you sing a song at a Powwow your sharing it with the people. If your gonna put "stipulations" on that song don't expect everyone to understand or follow them.....Always carry yourself in a good way though...."

Years ago the Powwow community was smaller and close knit....Nowadays you find Powwows coast to coast....As was said some people are just not aware of particular things.....When we encounter these situations patience and common sense should be practiced....

I've witnessed one extreme to the next....What gets under my skin (so to speak) is when someone grandstands and dives completely off the deep end in hopes of proving their point......Then to make it even more ironic that person (in some cases) has no rite whatsoever to say a thing.....Has no knowledge of music and would not even sing in their home communities....? Although if their a few clicks out of their mix, well their a know all be all.....

On the other hand i've experienced positive meaningful experiences that leave lasting impressions on you. Made many a relative and friend through music (the initial intent).

[tribaltagz]

I agree... none of the solutions I proposed are viable options, but I'm not too sure recalling songs is a viable option either. I know many people have already set themselves up as the "PPP", or the Perfect Pow wow Police. I know a lady here who confronts women who LuLu, asking where they recieved those rights; that only certain people have the rights to LuLu. Seems everyone is getting a PPP badge. I guess we should feel lucky that we're so well policed.
I have no clue what the answers are. I think it's a very complex subject. Pow-wows have become like a deranged horse running toward a burning stable. Everything is getting all mixed around; I think folks have recognized that things are getting out of hand and are trying to turn things around, "recalling" songs. Am just not sure how well that will work. Maybe Mc's could help by talking more about certain songs and their meanings, but given all the tribal songs, sung, not sure an MC would even know. Maybe drums should be required to only sing songs their drum carries and has composed. Again, not too plausible here in Oklahoma where we have an Open Center drum.

Wow. This is kinda bumming me out. If things continue the way they are, what will pow-wows be like in 10 years? 20?