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Southern Singer needs help!

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  • Southern Singer needs help!

    hi, i am a Eaglescout in the Order of the arrow. i am the Atta Kulla Kulla Lodge drum team chairman. we are competing at our conclave (Dixie) in the spring and have some questions. what exactly do we need in our research paper. We are singing two diffrent songs an intertribal (song#2) from Otter trail off of Red Rock and Omaha white tail Live Kickin' it up, back in the saddle (song #8). We are a young drum that needs some help if anyone can give me info. on these songs or about what i need for conclave please send me back.

  • #2
    ummmm ya


    • #3
      Re: Southern Singer needs help!

      Originally posted by unihb2
      hi, i am a Eaglescout in the Order of the arrow. i am the Atta Kulla Kulla Lodge drum team chairman. we are competing at our conclave (Dixie) in the spring and have some questions. what exactly do we need in our research paper. We are singing two diffrent songs an intertribal (song#2) from Otter trail off of Red Rock and Omaha white tail Live Kickin' it up, back in the saddle (song #8). We are a young drum that needs some help if anyone can give me info. on these songs or about what i need for conclave please send me back.
      I'm going to stick my neck out on a limb here, and berate the rest of you folks for being jerks. How's that for boldness? Some of you claim to be knowledgeable, resourceful people, yet the only thing you can manage to do is berate someone for looking for good information. If this is what is going to continue to happen, you may as well consider this my last post on this board. No great loss? Fine.

      You folks may or may not realize this, but a variety of folks use these forums as a resource for information, and for the most part, we should strive to provide this information. Why? Think of it this way, if you will. Perhaps this young man realizes that he's not going to get any information here. So what does he do? "Why these boy scouts won't know the difference...I'll just make something up....That song is a Winnebago Chief's Song, or a Kiowa War Mothers Song"..Unfortunately, folks, this happens. I have at one time been involved with this organization, and I know there are excellent resources there--folks that know these songs up and down and sing all across the United States. On the other hand, however, there are individuals who don't know their a** from a hole in the ground, and continue to perpetuate this misinfomation. Unfortunate as it may be, this happens.

      So, what have you accomplished by ridiculing this individual? First of all, you've made yourselves look like jerks. You've proven to this individual and many others that you'd rather be jerks than provide good information, and that it quite possibly doesn't matter that bad information gets out there, proving yourselves a detriment to your culture rather than an asset. Second, you've proven yourselves to be stereotypical individuals who thrive on assumptions. How do you know this kid is white? In all liklihood, he may be. But who are you to assume such? To 'assume' makes an '***' out of 'u' and 'me'. Lastly, you've quite possibly sent this individaul and others away uninformed, and they may very well misinform others based on their own limited knowledge.
      In short, if you can't be constructvie, don't offer your criticism. Quite often, it does more harm than good.

      I find it quite sad that you complain day in and day out about how folks continually damage the Native American culture by providing bad examples and bad information, yet you won't do anything to rectify the problem by helping someone get good information. You folks are quite honestly pathetic. If you can't be constructive and helpful, you might as well not be anything at all.

      Now, to address this young man's questions, in hopes that he can leave here informed, and that some of you may see how easy it is to be helpful....

      Thie first song to which you are referring is from Omaha Whitetail's CD "Kickin' It Up". This group is out of Nebraska, and this CD is actually my favorite of their releases. As far as I know, this is simply an intertribal song. I'm not sure that it was composed specifically for a person, or purpose, but maybe someone here can help with that if they know. This song is a very good song to start out with, as it has no words, and it's probably safe to say that you won't offend anyone if you sing it correctly and as it was meant to be sung.

      The second song is from Otter Trails recording "The Next Chapter". This song is, in my opinion, the prettiest song on the recording. It makes for a great grand entry song, or exhibition song for "slower", if you will, dance styles. Like the first song you asked about, this song is all "vocables"--no words--and is safe to sing as long as you learn it and sing it correctly.

      If anyone here has other information, I hope they will be generous in helping you out. I have told you as much as I know--little as it is--and I hope it helps. I admire your humility in searching for knowledgeable resources. While you may not have gotten the desired answer, and had to endure ridicule, you did the right thing by looking before you leapt. Singing any song incorrectly or at the inappropriate time and place can be a very bad thing, causing, shame, hurt, and bad feelings. Always know what you're singing, because you may sing it inappropriately or at the wrong time or place, and really offend someone. Hopefully, your post here will be an example to others, showing that you need to know what you're singing before you really make a fool out of yourself.

      I hope this helps, and good luck.


      (edited for a couple of spelling errors and slight content adjustment)
      Last edited by Paul G; 02-04-2002, 01:56 PM.


      • #4
        What Boyscouts!!??

        Boyscouts want to learn about native songs so they can get there eagle badge? Oh well I guess it could be worse. All I can say is pay attention to what you learn and don't ever disrespect native culture. Are there natives that become Boyscouts??? I don't know.....


        • #5
          Hey "Southern" singer, BOO HOO. After you spent three hours writing your crying post i spent three seconds skimming through it not giving a **** what you wanna help white peole from the Royal Order Of The Water Buffalo Straight Arrows "Learn" our? culture you go ahead........i ain't helping you..........I'll spend my time sharing my little bit of knowledge of Our culture with the youth back home on my rez..........not someone looking for a badge........i guess thats all....Soutnern Singer??
          Last edited by Paul G; 02-04-2002, 01:56 PM.


          • #6
            First Tymer,

            Thanks for your reply. I refuse to join you bystooping to such a level of negativity, but I respect your right to voice your opinion. I'm glad you have the desire to share your knowledge back home, and I hope that works out well for you. All I'm saying is that we need to eliminate the non-constructive negativity from this board and attempt to help those who seek it. Be they native, non-native, or whathaveyou, people come to the singing and dancing forums to learn and get new perspectives and qulaified information. Should you desire to make this a racial thing, go post with your buddies in Native Issues. Lets try to make this a friendly forum for all who visit. I, for one, intend to do so, and I hope your views change. If you want your culture to continually be misrepresented, then continue to be standoffish. If you accept the fact that boy scouts and other hobbyists aren't going to just disappear, and hence desire to at least see them be respectful and accurate, then stand with those of us who try to help. One way or another, I hope to see you down the road.

            BTW, at one point, I was in the same boat as you...ask SouthernDrumSinger--I tried to continually bash rather than try to help and demonstrate a desire to see things improve. At any rate, do as you choose. Not knowing you, I don't guess I can fault you.

            Good day.



            • #7
              Scar Face,
              Yes there are Indians who are members of the Boy Scouts. I good friend of mine ( full, Navahjo ) was in scouts as a youth, until some of the bad outside infuences took over in his life and led him down the trail of drugs and alcohol. He speaks about his time in scouts as being a good time, and that he learned from it.
              Another friend of is full Lenape, and his son is an Eagle Scout and the father works as an adult leader.
              This boy doesn't need sining to earn the rank of eagle. He said that he is and eagle scout. He sounds like a teenager who is looking to learn about something from those on here who claim to know what's what.
              I agree that he should always look to respect the ways that he learns and to learn the right ways. But there are so many people out there who claim to know the right way and don't.
              Is this the place to ask a question about scouting, no. But to ask about sining, I would hope so.


              • #8
                Thank you for elaborating on these questions, Randy. And thank you to those who have also helped to clarify these issues in the past. If we can get everyone to understand where everyone else is coming from, maybe we can make this a much more friendly and informative place to be.

                I'll be back later.....



                • #9
                  Originally posted by first_tymer
                  ....I'll spend my time sharing my little bit of knowledge of Our culture with the youth back home on my rez....
                  First Tymer,

                  You mention something that not a lot of us have, and thats a Rez. Even still, back home in our Community, there are not many youth who are interested in singing or dancing for that matter. How do we keep what little bit we have alive? I applaud the youth and people in your Community....on your Rez....for keeping things going and having a vested interest in our culture. That is wonderful! But how do you do that when people turn away from their culture? (Just a rhetorical question. If you have an answer, great. Please share with all of us who struggle with that demon day in and day out.)

                  Now, to address something else that was said. SouthernSinger addressed this thread like a true "Old Timer" who has seen many ways come and go, many things change. He's right, there are non-natives who are going to participate in our Native Way. With or without our help. And, its up to those with a special gift for teaching others the correct way. Not everyone has that gift. Some people just tell/share what they know, but it takes a special someone to "teach it".

                  I am not Pawnee. I am not Ponca. I am not Kiowa. I am not Otoe. I am not Cherokee. But I am what I am. I know my Native and my non-Native ancestry. I know where my people come from. I know where they've traveled. I know where I will always blood ancestors. I will always know of the ways of my People and the Pow Wow ways. How is this so? I've taken the time to respectfully respectfully respectfully try....and I've done all this humbly and learning many big lessons in a short amount of time.
                  To get a true picture of your purpose in life, you only get the whole picture when you listen with your mind, your ears and your heart. This way The Creator has a direct connection with you and only outside interference.

                  When you follow the will of IT that created you, understanding that your purpose is not for you...but for IT and all that IT has created, there can be no wrong except failure to be obedient. Only then do we jeopardize the gifts we are given.

                  Its not the final destination that defines us, rather the journey taken!


                  • #10
                    OK, about the boyscout. It is good that he is trying to learn, that shows anitiative. Would you rather someone go and sing the song wrong, then have him ask and sing it right? To me, and I'm not full-blooded myself, but I don't care what nation, white or ndn, you know it dosen't matter.Like I have seen whit folks more indian then ndns. You know. It don't matter. At least he is showing appreciation for singing and is bothering to ask, rather then like most of them white folks do is assume and go on. We ignore these ppl trying to learn, and thats gonna set a precedent to all white folks, and maybe even the youth back on your rez. So think about what you do, before your sooooo quick to blow someone off..... and I'm 16 years old.


                    • #11
                      Is no one apt enough to respond?


                      • #12
                        you know he is right....even though he might not be fullblooded or he might not be native at all..but atleast he is trying to keep it real...i know some native who are more white than white people but you dont complain about that do ..why... because they look it....its not on the outside that make you ndn its on the inside


                        • #13
                          cmon guyz


                          • #14
                            yea guys


                            • #15
                              Good one folks , these issues seem to come up when people ask for help. Its just like people when they first start out singing or dancning they have to learn no one is perfect, even us as Native people we are not perfect.


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