rigged powwows

[Two-cents1]

Here are my powwow observations:

Red Earth used to have computer pros from Tinker Air Force Base do their tabs. People complained that something fishy was going on in the tabs room cuz no one was allowed in. All non-Indian crew from what I understand and they knew their stuff. Lots of complaints still.

Denver March has a patented points system with all Indian people running their tabs. Grace has told me herself, "It's not just about math", meaning there is more to running dance tabs than just crunching numbers. I hear complaints every year about suspicion of manipulating numbers there.

GON had non-Indian dance judges for awhile, reason stated that they were very impartial and since they didn't know anyone, they would just judge on dancing. Lots of complaints cuz non-Indians wouldn't know what to look for with all the different dance styles.

Denver March I've heard asks their head staff immediate family not to compete in contests. BUT, committee members own immediate family used to compete all the time and win. Lots of complaints back then.

Very few powwows ask their family not to compete when on head staff as dance judges or arena directors. Hell, I've seen powwows where the HEAD STAFF has jumped into dance specials and won. Can you imagine the complaints there at those powwows?

People complain when dancers judge other dancers, saying that it's all a big "clique" of traveling dancers, and they just pick their buddies.

People complain when they use singers to judge dance contests cuz they don't dance and they don't know what to look for.

People complain when non-dancers judge cuz "they don't dance and don't know what to look for."

I've seen unscrupulous head dance judges who have "stacked" judges, but these were the new-to-headstaff idiots that bragged about taking care of their friends (how stupid can you get). I've also heard from dancers themselves who say their criteria for judging includes whether a dancer depends on the powwow money or not.

Don't get me started on people who attempt to manipulate the points system. I've done tabs before and saw where judges have repeated numbers in an effort to give a certain dancer more points, where judges have completely ommitted a great dancer from their ballot and filled their ballot with hobbyist dancers or beginners, then put their buddies in first place in an effort to manipulate the points.

Can anyone see where I"m going with this yet?

No matter what powwow committees or head judges/AD's do, SOMEONE is going to complain about something. It's a system run by humans, so there is room for human error, like everything else. I've seen all this and more, heard more complaints than I can count, but I still go to powwows and I love every minute of it.

If I feel really strongly that a powwow won't be fair due to a head staff member, or tabulators, then I don't go and I find a different powwow to go to where I'll enjoy myself. I don't like complaining or having that feeling that I want to start.......so I pick and choose my powwows where I know I'll have a good time, hear some good singing, good tough dance contests, and truly enjoy myself.

[incognito]

Using non-tribal members as head staff at powwows

Ann Arbour used a non tribal member as head male dance judge last year. He is a Mexican-American adopted into native ways. He is also head dance judge this year, he must be doing something right.

[Kiwehnzii]

Ann Arbour used a non tribal member as head male dance judge last year. He is a Mexican-American adopted into native ways. He is also head dance judge this year, he must be doing something right.

I know of this man. His father is a full-blood originally from the Saginaw-Chippewa. He was given up for adoption and since he discovered his original people, (he has brothers and sisters enrolled at Sag/chip) he has been attempting to get enrolled there. Technicalities has so far created a roadblock, but he is yet hopeful of full enrollment.

[woggs]

Here are my powwow observations:

Red Earth used to have computer pros from Tinker Air Force Base do their tabs. People complained that something fishy was going on in the tabs room cuz no one was allowed in. All non-Indian crew from what I understand and they knew their stuff. Lots of complaints still.

Denver March has a patented points system with all Indian people running their tabs. Grace has told me herself, "It's not just about math", meaning there is more to running dance tabs than just crunching numbers. I hear complaints every year about suspicion of manipulating numbers there.

GON had non-Indian dance judges for awhile, reason stated that they were very impartial and since they didn't know anyone, they would just judge on dancing. Lots of complaints cuz non-Indians wouldn't know what to look for with all the different dance styles.

Denver March I've heard asks their head staff immediate family not to compete in contests. BUT, committee members own immediate family used to compete all the time and win. Lots of complaints back then.

Very few powwows ask their family not to compete when on head staff as dance judges or arena directors. Hell, I've seen powwows where the HEAD STAFF has jumped into dance specials and won. Can you imagine the complaints there at those powwows?

People complain when dancers judge other dancers, saying that it's all a big "clique" of traveling dancers, and they just pick their buddies.

People complain when they use singers to judge dance contests cuz they don't dance and they don't know what to look for.

People complain when non-dancers judge cuz "they don't dance and don't know what to look for."

I've seen unscrupulous head dance judges who have "stacked" judges, but these were the new-to-headstaff idiots that bragged about taking care of their friends (how stupid can you get). I've also heard from dancers themselves who say their criteria for judging includes whether a dancer depends on the powwow money or not.

Don't get me started on people who attempt to manipulate the points system. I've done tabs before and saw where judges have repeated numbers in an effort to give a certain dancer more points, where judges have completely ommitted a great dancer from their ballot and filled their ballot with hobbyist dancers or beginners, then put their buddies in first place in an effort to manipulate the points.

Can anyone see where I"m going with this yet?

No matter what powwow committees or head judges/AD's do, SOMEONE is going to complain about something. It's a system run by humans, so there is room for human error, like everything else. I've seen all this and more, heard more complaints than I can count, but I still go to powwows and I love every minute of it.

If I feel really strongly that a powwow won't be fair due to a head staff member, or tabulators, then I don't go and I find a different powwow to go to where I'll enjoy myself. I don't like complaining or having that feeling that I want to start.......so I pick and choose my powwows where I know I'll have a good time, hear some good singing, good tough dance contests, and truly enjoy myself.

SO true, i agree that no matter what ,there is always going to favoritism, but all I can say is dance and forget about the judges... because no matter where you go, or who your judges are, or whatever..all that matters is that you are dancing the way your heart tells you to ,and for those who cannot dance....
Look at it this way..at least you get to dance and be thankful for these god-given talents and abilities that many others wish they had.....When I find myself getting sad I just tell myself that I am lucky for being able to dance...I always think of my buddy Alex, he used to dance and now he can't because he's in a wheel chair...I mean , I would hate to be in his shoes, I bet it erks him to hear people complain about not winning....so i always say" dont sweat the petty things, pet the sweaty things.."..aye anyway just dance, who cares about everyones little cliques..just dance

[incognito]

whass up!

[Coyot_In_The_House]

Were is this coming from?

Ann Arbour used a non tribal member as head male dance judge last year. He is a Mexican-American adopted into native ways. He is also head dance judge this year, he must be doing something right.

That's pretty weak what your saying.....I'm glad Kiwehnzii said what he did though....The person your dragging through the proverbial mud is a respectful person and i've known him since we were kids.....Granted we all have certain motivations to say what we say.....Gerry is a Skin.....Period!

[Two-cents1]

Ann Arbour used a non tribal member as head male dance judge last year. He is a Mexican-American adopted into native ways. He is also head dance judge this year, he must be doing something right.

I've known who this man is also. He's danced for years and years and I (along with everyone else who knows him) only know him as being Indian. I don't think using him as an example fits what we're talking about here.

Woggs, that's what I"m sayin......ENJOY yourself and just dance, cuz every powwow is going to have something that someone doesn't like. Make the most of the wonderful opportunity you have to dance or sing.

Sometimes I wonder what powwows would be like if everyone who dances or sings had a job or was in school.........lol. Would there be less complaining? Less politic-ing?

[kiyaanii mom]

Live and Learn

No matter what, people complain, especially powwow dancers who make a living on winning. Judging is subjective and depending on your perspective, sometimes unfair.

1) Keep your points and books open!
2) If I saw a judge stacking their ballot. (putting one number more than once) That would be the last time they judge at a powwow I have affiliation with. That is why we make them sign their ballots.
3) I think it is best when you pick judges who are balanced. Dancers/singers/ndn observers, male/female, old/young/middle.
4) I don't think white observers have any business judging dancing or singing.

Just my 2cents........

[Tiyospaye Yazzie]

Gourd Dance

Gourd dance is the best of powwows. There's no competeing, no complaints, just good ole fashion Ndin fun. Its not segregated as the other portion of the powwow.

[Roobz]

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[Roobz]

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[Two-cents1]

I've always worked powwows where the books were open. The only problem I have with open books is we always get a dancer who placed, but wants to see why they didn't get first or place higher. One high-profile dancer used to send a little relative all the time to check the dancer's points even when the dancer placed. That got annoying. But I figure that we were on the up-an-up, didn't have anything to hide, so we kept the books open. And I never took it personal either if someone wanted to check their points for whatever reason. I've been to powwows where I've heard the committee or tabulators hold it against the person who wants to check.

I always think those powwows with the $100 or higher protest fee just don't want anyone to see what their doing with their books.

Oh, and the powwows I've done tabs, the commitee had the judges sign their ballots. It's pretty disappointing when you see how hateful some people can be, when you had no idea before about that person.

[Coyot_In_The_House]

It Boils down to a Time Frame.....

I'm leaning towards the Complaint fee.....Nothing like everything coming down to the wire Sunday Evening and someone comes out of the clear blue to dive off the deep end? Your rushng around dealing with all kinds of things, trying to make things run smooth and there they are standing right in front of you? Any given Sunday, yes i've seen some pretty rugged results but why can't folks just move on.....When we're on the receiving end we deal with it, don't sit there and cry around and pout and make a proverbial scene? I was always taught to just move on.....it would be nice if others would realize that. As far as judges it is difficult to find people who will be impartial and fair. Everyone is going to have a little bias and when it boils right down to it they may select someone they are familar with, unfortunate but it happens.....It's tough to judge when the talent is over whelming! You stand there and just Geez! how the hell am I going to figure this out? What does strike me though is to make certain selections and come Sunday Night your sitting there dumbfounded when the winners are announced? When a dancer get's the "Gate" and that person was on all weekend sure your gonna raise an eyebrow. Were all opinonated and we certainly have our favorites, but that's pretty natural right? I like how someone said 'Humans make mistakes" LOL No doubt! Although hopefully we learn from them and move on....

[Coyot_In_The_House]

[Two-cents1]

I guess I should clarify my idea of "open book". When I've worked, we have the sheets with all the points for all dancers available if anyone wants to check. Has the points from GE's, exhibitions, and contest rounds. We don't have the books open all weekend and we don't let people see the judges ballots. That to me would be unrealistic since it takes time to get through registration and get caught up by the time contests start.

One time I got a complaint a few days after the powwow where the dancer was questioning the tabulating. I told the dancer that they could come in and we would pull all the dance ballots for that category, GE sheets, exhibition sheets, and we would tabulate by hand all the points this dancer had. The dancer said, "You know, I might just do that" I never heard from the dancer after that.

I think if you're going to do the protest fee, it should be high enough to make people really think if they want to fork over the money, but not so high that people think you're hiding something.

Lol......I was in attendance at a powwow one time where they had a $100 protest fee. One dancer didn't get in we all saw the dancer march right up and slap a $100 bill on the table in front of the tabulators. The tabulators laid open the books right then for the dancer. That was kinda funny cuz I guess the dancer just didn't get very many points. The dancer just kinda slunk away. Sometimes it's better just not knowing....lol.