different sides of singing

[LSS]

How often are you called upon sing a northern style song?

How often do you this happen?

When this happens, do southern groups have their own songs or do they pull something from the "Top 40"?

[Wojapi4Me]

LSS, this isn't directed at you per se, but just an overall statement

At some point singers forgot how to say, "We don't sing those type of songs." There's nothing wrong with that. There have been times I've been singing and we were called upon for Men's Southern Straight...a few times we passed the song and a few times they got a northern traditional song. But we explained each before we did it.

I know some sioux drums who won't sing Crow hops for obvious reasons. Drums don't have to be catch-alls you know. I think all this changed with popularity of drum contests...wish they'd never even started those...drum splits are a LOT better

Ok, sorry for butting into the southern singing thread.

[park]

Amen

I agree with Singerdad completely.

Although it is commendable that some singers learn all kinds of songs, that begs the question of whether a singer (or drum) should be called on to render an atypical song. I've also sat with plenty of drums who've waived off songs, preferring to sing what they do best.

If you have a host southern and northern drum, why not let the northern drum handle the crow hop and the southern drum handle the fancy ruffle? As an extreme example, who ever heard of calling on a northern drum to sing gourd dance?

I will say, however, that when it's just a southern drum and there are northern dancers, most good southern singers have a few songs in their back pocket that--while sung in a southern range--are perfectly appropriate. Remember that a head singer retains the authority to say no to certain requests.

[LSS]

I will say, however, that when it's just a southern drum and there are northern dancers, most good southern singers have a few songs in their back pocket that--while sung in a southern range--are perfectly appropriate. Remember that a head singer retains the authority to say no to certain requests.

I agree with you whole-heartedly. I have always been taught that a good Southern Drum, esp. one who will take on Host Jobs, must be able & ready to sing anything.

If you are dancers, or members of a pow wow committee, how do you view that drum who "say no to certain request"? Try to take yourselves out of the Southern Mentality for a bit. I'm just playing Devils Advocate here.

[TiPi CrEePeR]

Dude, if we be called on for a southern we just pass it on. I ain't doin that. We were called on to do a buffalo dance one time. think that was it. we just sat there while the mc kept callin on us. lmao. we motioned to the southern. he still din't get it. nukkin futz! anyway dude had to be told. You'd think the mc should be well versed on what to call and not. dayum dude. don't quit yur day job!

[Wojapi4Me]

I agree with you whole-heartedly. I have always been taught that a good Southern Drum, esp. one who will take on Host Jobs, must be able & ready to sing anything.

If you are dancers, or members of a pow wow committee, how do you view that drum who "say no to certain request"? Try to take yourselves out of the Southern Mentality for a bit. I'm just playing Devils Advocate here.

See, this goes back to another thread I started about who runs the pow wow now? It used to be the singers - specifically the head singer. They'd sing songs specific to their tribe and their ways and that was that. Nowadays, things are all screwed up. Emcees calling on us northern guys for Men's Straight and trot songs and whatnot...stupid really.

I was taught that you should try to have songs for all occasions as well, but I think you're taking that wrong. I was taught to have songs for all occasions relating to Sioux songs...not Ponca or Kiowa or Osage doings. Being a "host drum" does not mean that you're responsible for every type of song out there...at least it shouldn't.

[park]

Ditto

I agree again with Singerdad. You sure are an agreeable fellow!

Being able to render a requested song doesn't mean ANY possible kind of song. Imagine a Comanche group being asked to sing a Smoke dance song. Maybe they know one because they traveled up in New York or worse have a tape, but why would that ever be appropriate? I agree that a singer who is prepared to be a head singer should know all the basics from start to finish for the area in which he is singing.

To put a finer point on it for LSS, are head singers in your area prepared to sing family songs when requested during the gourd dance session? That is, for ANY family that might show up and ask? Even in Southwest Oklahoma, that's a big burden and explains why only a relative few are qualified and capable to accept a head singer position. I'm content to sit back, sing along, and lead a few.

I agree that head singers should still control the dance, but competition powwows have changed that. It's still not unusual for a committee to ask for a song (maybe, two-step or sneak up) and the singers to blow it off. That's not rude, it's just the singers exercising their perogative. To answer the Devil's Advocate, I think committees should respect the head singer more.

For what it's worth, I don't want to (and probably can't) take myself out of the "Southern mentality" because it's what I know.

[LSS]

I agree again with Singerdad. You sure are an agreeable fellow!

Being able to render a requested song doesn't mean ANY possible kind of song. Imagine a Comanche group being asked to sing a Smoke dance song. Maybe they know one because they traveled up in New York or worse have a tape, but why would that ever be appropriate? I agree that a singer who is prepared to be a head singer should know all the basics from start to finish for the area in which he is singing.

To put a finer point on it for LSS, are head singers in your area prepared to sing family songs when requested during the gourd dance session? That is, for ANY family that might show up and ask? Even in Southwest Oklahoma, that's a big burden and explains why only a relative few are qualified and capable to accept a head singer position. I'm content to sit back, sing along, and lead a few.

I agree that head singers should still control the dance, but competition powwows have changed that. It's still not unusual for a committee to ask for a song (maybe, two-step or sneak up) and the singers to blow it off. That's not rude, it's just the singers exercising their perogative. To answer the Devil's Advocate, I think committees should respect the head singer more.

For what it's worth, I don't want to (and probably can't) take myself out of the "Southern mentality" because it's what I know.

Ok....to clarify a few things....lemme start off by saying that while I may not personally agree with being called on for "atypical categories", I try not to make too big of striffs with the rest of the Head Staff. Also, when I mentioned "southern mentality", I guess I meant think outside of a "Southern Pow Wow" where the Head Singer may have more "pull" with what goes on at a dance.

SingerDad,
You and have pow wowed at the same dance on a couple of occassions. And, each of those occassions, there was a "Center Drum" and a "Northern Host". The problem/question I attempted to present in the first post is not related that situation/set up at all.

I think one of the main reasons I ask this is b/c out here people have a tendency to assume that you're out here where Northern Drums and Northern Pow Wows are prevelant, you should know about these dances. I don't neccessarily agree with this. Which makes more sense? A small population learning the way of the many or the many learning the way of the smaller populations?

Does the sword appear to be clearer? I'm not looking to support, OR DOWN for that matter, anyone who is on a Head Staff or committee. All I am looking for is clarity from other who sing in "groups" who have been called upon to sing something "different" than what they're use to.

For us, Gourd Dance is very rare out here. For one, not many people sing it and two hardly ever does anyone request it. Much of what we find out here is more along the lines of an exhibition, or a shortened/abbreviated session. I dig in whenever I can, but I can't always get there. And when I do, I may only get a chance to sing 2/3 songs depending on where I am in rotation and how many there are ahead of me.

[Wojapi4Me]

Ok....to clarify a few things....lemme start off by saying that while I may not personally agree with being called on for "atypical categories", I try not to make too big of striffs with the rest of the Head Staff.

An old Kiowa guy once told me that being a head singer means making people mad sometimes...just goes with the territory. Not everyone is going to agree at a dance, and since you're in a southern group that is called upon to be host drum that puts you in the position of head singer and like it or not you're the honcho.

Over the years I've sung with several groups and we never sung southern songs just to appease a committee or to "not make waves". If they wanted those songs sung, they should have asked a southern drum to be there or hired a head southern singer...that's my thoughts on the situation. I would think the same would hold true for a southern drum.

As a northern fancy dancer, if I see a head southern singer listed on the flyer or simply a host southern drum then I know going into it that there's a real possibility I won't hear any northern music that weekend. No worries...that's my choice to go dance or not and certainly their choice of what to sing.

Being that the Haliwa-Saponi didn't traditionally have these ways and are adopting them now I'm not sure if you guys are following a certain tribe's ways such as Kiowa, Ponca, Osage, Pawnee, etc. and singing their songs, but to me it would seem better if you chose one tribal style and stuck to it...otherwise you're trying to be too much to too many people.

[CandaePrincess]

It just trips me out that back east there is a Top 40 of songs. *L* Wow. Too me that's really, strange. For lack of a better word!

[southernsky]

"It just trips me out that back east there is a Top 40 of songs. *L* Wow. Too me that's really, strange. For lack of a better word!"

Now that cracks me up too!!

If your going to be hitting the main-stream pow wows, you should be ready for anything. There are plenty of southern songs that can be sung with the northern style beat that sound pretty good. I don't know how many times we have been called on to sing for a northern style contest, even jingle side step contest. There is nothing wrong with having to sing these songs, that's just the way the rotation works out sometimes. And if money is on the line, well you better have the songs ready, cuz if you can't sing what is needed sometimes you will lose points for being passed. If you can't hang with the big dogs...keep your A$$ on the portch.

[LSS]

"It just trips me out that back east there is a Top 40 of songs. *L* Wow. Too me that's really, strange. For lack of a better word!"

Now that cracks me up too!!

If your going to be hitting the main-stream pow wows, you should be ready for anything. There are plenty of southern songs that can be sung with the northern style beat that sound pretty good. I don't know how many times we have been called on to sing for a northern style contest, even jingle side step contest. There is nothing wrong with having to sing these songs, that's just the way the rotation works out sometimes. And if money is on the line, well you better have the songs ready, cuz if you can't sing what is needed sometimes you will lose points for being passed. If you can't hang with the big dogs...keep your A$$ on the portch.

This is the thought and attitude that I see that exist a lot more commonly; especially out in my area. I guess what I'm more interested in now is where does this start and where does it end? With whom?

SingerDad, I like your thoughts here...

An old Kiowa guy once told me that being a head singer means making people mad sometimes...just goes with the territory. Not everyone is going to agree at a dance, and since you're in a southern group that is called upon to be host drum that puts you in the position of head singer and like it or not you're the honcho.

Over the years I've sung with several groups and we never sung southern songs just to appease a committee or to "not make waves". If they wanted those songs sung, they should have asked a southern drum to be there or hired a head southern singer...that's my thoughts on the situation. I would think the same would hold true for a southern drum.

As a northern fancy dancer, if I see a head southern singer listed on the flyer or simply a host southern drum then I know going into it that there's a real possibility I won't hear any northern music that weekend. No worries...that's my choice to go dance or not and certainly their choice of what to sing.

To me, I think sometimes dancers are somewhat spoiled with knowing that the MC runs the show nowadays. At my young age, I've never experienced a dance where the Head Singer dictated the flow of the pow wow. I wish I'd had the privelege of experiencing that (or have it sometime in the future). I see a lot of dancers attending pow wows and request drums/songs and never pay for them. I certainly wish more dancers took this approach to dancing at pow wows.

[southernsky]

well LSS,,
You should come to Oklahoma this weekend for Pawhuska Dances. Osage's have their dances (not pow wows) in the month of June. 3 districts, this weekend is Pawhuska, there you will find the HS runnin the show. Or come to a Giveswater dance, there the HS runs the show. These are "old style" dances, no contests, just the way it was in the old days that people seem to think they know about. Your not going to find these kinds of things back east I'll tell you that. The best advice is...if you don't like the way Pow wows are run these days...don't go. Becuase nothing is going to change or go back to "old ways", it is only going to get worse. That is why you don't see a lot of the people you used to at pow wows. A lot of us getting tired of this "contemporary" world. Today it's all about the money, and that is sad.

[LSS]

well LSS,,
You should come to Oklahoma this weekend for Pawhuska Dances. Osage's have their dances (not pow wows) in the month of June. 3 districts, this weekend is Pawhuska, there you will find the HS runnin the show. Or come to a Giveswater dance, there the HS runs the show. These are "old style" dances, no contests, just the way it was in the old days that people seem to think they know about. Your not going to find these kinds of things back east I'll tell you that. The best advice is...if you don't like the way Pow wows are run these days...don't go. Becuase nothing is going to change or go back to "old ways", it is only going to get worse. That is why you don't see a lot of the people you used to at pow wows. A lot of us getting tired of this "contemporary" world. Today it's all about the money, and that is sad.

ahemmmmmmm.....

amen!

[suthernwaterbird]

With whom?

My thoughts exactly...no whome? lol All I know is that being a head singer is more then just singing, ofcourse, but I was taught be ready for anything. Me personally I try not to turn down songs, because in my opinion it kinda adds some color to this black n white protocol at powwows. It's kind of like a challenge. Sometimes we'll sing a northern intertribal just for the fun of it. Just to kinda balance it out... Not saying everyone is required to sing northern. But when it comes to singing an appropriate song for a category, sure why not.. there are plenty of northern songs out there... and if someone complains that we sang a northern song southern, I say well then talk to the emcee he gave us the song.... But then again some songs should stick to its origin....