Powwow Point System question..what do you think??

[Nezbah]

Okay, okay, I know most of you know that I have been doing tabulation but there is a lingering question that keeps bothering me or don't know what to do about. Maybe ya'all can help us out or discover a new way to deal with this issue. But it pertains to being FULLY DRESSED during Grand Entry, Contests, Participation points, etc. Point is....what is fully dressed??

Yes, we can say being fully dressed is having everything on according to the style you dance. Participants may get points deducted for not having their roach on, feathers on, etc. But who are we to say if someone hasn't earned those rights to wear them, that they must wear them to get points??

Personally, I have been debating this issue because I know some dancers who believe like I do, do not wear roaches or feathers because they haven't been given the rights to do so. Then there are dancers who just wear them to 'complete' their outfits just because its what protocal asks them to do.

For example, I know for my lil one, he didn't have a roach or feathers until he earned them for 5 years. Then I have been told as a Navajo woman to never adorn eagle or feathers in my hair by my grandmothers and grandfathers. I respect them, so I don't and never will.

Anyhow, do you think being 'fully dressed' should include wearing the headgear that is suppose to make an outfit complete or just wear what you have??? And, if we put a clause, like so many powwows do, to have all dancers be FULLY dressed at GE or contests, how do we know who is or isn't??

I don't like being disrespectful to a dancer and taking a point because they aren't fully dressed because they don't own or have earned their roach, feathers, etc. I also don't like to be disrespectful to anyone by asking them, where is your full regalia?? How do we know or find out, without disrespecting someone, if they are fully dressed?? What would you do or would you suggest??

I'd like to see the point systems fair to everyone who contests. I don't think its really fair to judge a dancer who can really really dance but doesn't get the points for something they believe in, for example, not wearing their roach because they haven't earned the rights to do so yet.

I am interested in what you all think......

[kiyaanii mom]

When I have been taking GE points, sometimes it goes so fast, I don't even have time to look at the dancer. I barely have time to write the number and hopefully put a line in between the categories....

I have never minus points for not being in full regalia. You never know what's been going on, to cause this person to be late. For example, I know a couple of families who have a lot of girls, and it takes a long time to braid all their hair. So the mother starts with the youngest, because their contest will most likely come up first.

I just wish all the dancers would make an effort to get themselves at least mostly dressed. It looks ruggid to only be out there in your dress and choker, with tennis shoes and your hair in a real bushy bun!

[Nezbah]

LMAO.... yeah well to me bushy hair n all that is unacceptable. But its to the committee's discretion on how they want points to be awarded. The committee has completely said, they want the dancers to be fully dressed, no exceptions..... And, most contest powwows these days are now listing that as a RULE.....

I can defend being late to GE too, traffic, work, etc. We, and I have all been there. But that's not really the question, its to those who do not have what we call regalia protocal to be complete. How do we know who is fully dressed?? and what is being fully dressed?? not, half assed dressed....LOL, that I can tell. Besides I also have a person standing with me to help me out so we don't miss numbers, looking at everyone, taking notes, etc. Taking numbers does go really really fast....

[kiyaanii mom]

Oh I get it....

So do you tell them right there you are deducting points? Or do they get surprised later when they loose?

I think you would have to clarify with the committee what "full regalia" means. And then as tabulator define "half azzed" dress, because I think that is what they are trying to prevent. There are just too many factors to say "full regalia" Like if the arena is all wet and muddy, a lot of dancers might wear something other than mocs.

I think the better explanation of the rule would be "GE points will be deducted for dancers who are half assed dress in their regalia" That way you can deduct the "wannabes" too!!!!

[Nezbah]

Oh I get it....

So do you tell them right there you are deducting points? Or do they get surprised later when they loose?

I think you would have to clarify with the committee what "full regalia" means. And then as tabulator define "half azzed" dress, because I think that is what they are trying to prevent. There are just too many factors to say "full regalia" Like if the arena is all wet and muddy, a lot of dancers might wear something other than mocs.

I think the better explanation of the rule would be "GE points will be deducted for dancers who are half assed dress in their regalia" That way you can deduct the "wannabes" too!!!!

Well, the rules are handed out to each dancer as they register, its up to them whether they want to read them or not. And last year, the committee posted the rules online prior to the powwow, so there isn't a big surprise. But last year, the rules were enforced to include that everyone had to be fully dressed, including roaches, hair done, etc. I went by what the committee wanted but this year, I am kinda debating with them on the definition of 'fully dressed'. I kinda agree with them on some points but not to the point that everyone must have their roaches on or headgear on, partly because not everyone adorns all that. To me, if you're going to contest, you need to pay attention to the contest rules, be ready, and dance hard whether your in a contest or intertribal. Especially adults, who should know better and who have been contesting around the country. Seems like committee's are being more critical now but its up to the hired staff whether they enforce it or not. In the end, its really the committee's decision. .

Last year, I was comforted that the S Host drum, one of the elders stood behind us, stating that if you have a roach, you must be wearing it whenever you enter the arena. Otherwise, the elder has the right to take it away. Which I have been taught as true, however, that was just an FYI statement....:D.

But I love how you put.... GE points will be taken away if you're half-assed dressed....lmao. That's a gooter one. And yes, that is what the committee is trying to prevent....:D

Well if the arena is wet, muddy, etc, I think I would know better to take that into consideration.

I just wanted some input, is all. I think there is a subtle way to say points will not be awarded to those who are not fully dressed, but its clarifying what fully dressed is....LOL. For example, I would feel horrible if I didn't award someone points who didn't own or wear a roach because they just simply didn't have one or hadn't earned the rights to wear one. That is just an example.... Anyhow, the scruples are meandering around, I just hate leaving a powwow feeling like you messed up on something.... .

Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmm.

[legalstraight]

Compromise

First thing- to weed out the wannabes make folks show a tribal card to register- I have seen it done before, and I'm sure it will be done in the future, eliminates the arguments and definitely puts the non-indians on notice that if they want to dance they need to do it on inter-tribals only.
Only thing is you have to kind of publize that ahead of time so that everyone brings their paperwork.

As for roaches and so forth, define a complete outfit- if that includes "head covering" it could take in roach if you have rights, or a turban for the non-roaching tribes, or a bandana (pretty normal for young grass dancers) or the head scarves that straight dancers wear. For Northern traditional I have seen roaches (small and large), turbans (fur and cloth), bandanas, and so forth.
For women I guess it would include hair being done, plus barrets and so forth, doesn't necessarily include the feathers.

I always look at entering in incomplete regalia as an after the fact deduction- if I see you during the contest and your outfit is significantly more elaborate than it was at grand entry I go back and deduct. But, I also believe in spot checks too.

I agree about the sneakers, and then it comes up, what do you do about the golden agers? I have seen a few elders that have them new fancy Nikes, the ones you have to go to the clinic to get, and if they have foot problems or what have you they don't bother with mocs and will either just wear the sneakers, or paint on them so they look beaded if I don't have my glasses on.

I have to think some of this stuff comes from the area where you live (which I don't know). But, in places where you have stronger rules about who can wear what it tends to be less of an issue. But when you get into big inter-tribal pow-wows, or urban areas where you have lots of traditions trying to mesh thats where you run into problems about what constitutes a complete outfit, Same thing when you have folks that have traditions that are more distinct from pow-wows, like some of the Eastern tribes or the folks in the Northwest. I

[shawndaes]

Maybe you should have someone you know that has a digital camera take pictures during GE. If you notice something different during contest you have a reference and can deduct points if needed. Also they should always read the rules. If they haven't earned a piece of thier outfit they should say something at registration and remind you at GE. Also wondering what does your contest judging sheet say. Many pow wows out line what the judges should look for (complete regalia). Hopefully they should know better to not deduct for something you haven't earned. Rather appreciate the fact you have enough respect to not just put one on cause its cool.

[blueskysmom]

taking numbers

Your job is simply a number taker. Don't make the job more difficult. You or anyone else for that matter is not there to judge whether the person is fully dressed or not especially if you are talking about a whole lot of other tribes. None of us are that good. If the rules say fully dressed then someone else needs to be making thatr determination-----not you.

[shawndaes]

your job is simply a number taker. Don't make the job more difficult. You or anyone else for that matter is not there to judge whether the person is fully dressed or not especially if you are talking about a whole lot of other tribes. None of us are that good. If the rules say fully dressed then someone else needs to be making thatr determination-----not you.

well said!

[Wojapi4Me]

rules...rules...rules...

contesting used to be fun...

[Josiah]

We had a big knock down drag out thread about this last year
With most saying there are too many rules as it is

[WhoMe]

Question:

What if you see one with a wolf head, another with a buffalo head and another with a deer head???




Answer:



You may need to leave the zoo.

[Nezbah]

We had a big knock down drag out thread about this last year
With most saying there are too many rules as it is

I agree with you, there are too many rules. However, we can go on and say there alot of rulebreakers too. People will do whatever they can do to 'slide by' based on their reputation, who they know, or even who they pay off....LOL. But to have a contest, there has to be some set of rules, otherwise there would be nothing to go by. Like each dance style, in contest, has set ways to dance certain styles, aren't those rules?? Just even in life, there are set rules too.

I cannot stress this enough, the committee are the ones who sets the rules, we just enforce and abide by them. They are the ones who are shelling out the dough and making the decisions. Tabulators are not just adding machines...LOL. To make a successful contest powwow everyone has to be on the same page, communicate, and agree with eachother on certain issues. As a tabulator, I have been having to work with the committee, MC, AD, etc all day long to make sure everything is running smoothly, no contests are missed, not just taking numbers. I know most of you tabulators do the same thing, you have to be on the ball all day long, not your head in the books.

The purpose of the thread was to help the committee define being 'fully dressed'. Obviously there are many other different issues but right now the subject has been overrun with other things.... I agree with legalstraight, it is hard to define what is fully dressed when there are so many definitions. I know the committee just wants to be honest and fair so they can clarify their rules better. This is not suppose to be a rant n rave thread put down everyone else, blah blah blah. Its suppose to be informative and collaborate a different number of views to help an issue that hasn't really been defined.

[shawndaes]

Don't forget the fox and raccoon heads. LOL

[Nezbah]

Question:

What if you see one with a wolf head, another with a buffalo head and another with a deer head???




Answer:



You may need to leave the zoo.

LMAOH!! that's a gooter one :D or you may be Tanees bedroom...aye.