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Powwow Point System question..what do you think??

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  • WocusWoman
    replied
    Ok. I think first and foremost; if this was me asking this question, I would need to decide what tradition means to me and what contest dancing is. I agree with others, its not proper to dance into grand-entry without at least the bare neccessities for dancing. If your always worried about points or someone judging you during GE, maybe you should step back and re-evaluate why you want to participate in the first place.

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  • superndngyrl
    replied
    yea and then if the dancer doesn't meet the guidelines, then write below it... come dressed or don't show up! lol all mean like that too.

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  • ndnMSW
    replied
    I think this whole thread just shows how difficult it is to come up with a definition that is clear and enforceable and can be generalized across the powwow spectrum. If all these powwow people can't agree on one definition and know how they will differentiate between different tribes and different ways, then how is a committee going to do this and enforce it? I like Ki's idea myself....ask me about that when I'm about 70 and don't care what I say to who....lol!

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  • kiyaanii mom
    replied
    Originally posted by chipster View Post
    Understandable about dancers who don't braid up, or have a roach. It's their belief & tradition. It's good that they respect it. Perhaps there are some dancers who just can't afford to have a roach, or have a complete set of beadwork. Certain dance styles have a certain look. It's hard to find someone to do certain work, if you don't know any resources, or if you don't know how to do it yourself.
    With weather conditions, it's understandable not to wear your bustles, buckskin dress, or mocs if it just rained. If at a powwow (indoors or perfect weather outdoors) no reason not to be fully dressed, you & your family took the time & effort, spent what you spent to make your outfit to look good. Why not go all out each & every GE.
    Maybe committees should give bonus points for being fully dressed at GE.
    That's a good idea.

    The more I read the more I'm thinking that trying to monitor this is just to complicated. And it might be better if AD's, Committees, and/or Elders just start going up to "half azzed" dress dancers later and let then know they need to get with it. They are disrespecting their family, their dance and the outfit. Now who has the nerve to do that????? Not me!

    Leave a comment:


  • chipster
    replied
    Understandable about dancers who don't braid up, or have a roach. It's their belief & tradition. It's good that they respect it. Perhaps there are some dancers who just can't afford to have a roach, or have a complete set of beadwork. Certain dance styles have a certain look. It's hard to find someone to do certain work, if you don't know any resources, or if you don't know how to do it yourself.
    With weather conditions, it's understandable not to wear your bustles, buckskin dress, or mocs if it just rained. If at a powwow (indoors or perfect weather outdoors) no reason not to be fully dressed, you & your family took the time & effort, spent what you spent to make your outfit to look good. Why not go all out each & every GE.
    Maybe committees should give bonus points for being fully dressed at GE.

    Leave a comment:


  • Roobz
    replied
    Back to topic

    I've read some great points in this thread ranging from what one tribe may do, another may not to feathers being used primarily for contest as a way to take care and preserve them (I can understand that, especially if it's windy and dusty)

    I think it's a tough call to really define what "fully dressed" would be. I guess it would be up to the committee to come up with their definition of "fully dressed" and then print some rules/guidelines on their poster along with a handout to the dancers when they register.
    Last edited by Roobz; 10-27-2008, 11:26 PM.

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  • Roobz
    replied
    Originally posted by ndnMSW View Post

    Don't even get me started on the whole flashy regalia thing. I work hard to get my outfit the way I want it, as many other dancers do, with lots of color, pretty designs and fancy fabric, and I just started out way back in the day like everyone else with plain buckskin leggins and mocs and a cloth/ribbon cape. Anyone can do the same thing and I don't want to hear any excuses for not having a nice outfit. I had to teach myself how to sew and bead, I didn't have parents that knew how to do all that. Their biggest contribution to my dancing was getting people to make my first set of beadwork and dresses and shawls...I took it from there. That is a totally different topic for a different thread because that is all about paying your dues.
    I hear ya on that one! I totally agree with you. Good rep coming your way. There is nothing wrong with taking pride in your outfits and how you choose to present them. I started out with all applique, no beadwork (my parents realized how much I wanted to dance and asked around for someone to make my first outfit). Often, I would wish for bead work and finally learned (as did my sister) then I learned how to sew and from those experiences I really appreciate the hard work, time, creativity and pride that dancers put into their outfits. It all didn't happen over night for me, it took many years. And I'll probably keep wearing my most recent set of bead work for another five years or so. Sorry I just can't hang with the ones who can whip out a new set every month LOL But that's ok I really love my stuff and will wear it for a long time. No offense to the talented, speedy beaders who can do an entire outfit in a few weeks! (You're all awesome, keep on doing what ya do!)

    Sometimes during grand entry I stand in awe at others' beading and sewing abilities.

    Sorry to get off topic but I just had second that!
    Last edited by Roobz; 10-27-2008, 11:37 PM.

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  • ndnMSW
    replied
    First of all, I am in total agreement with Wojap on this one.

    I think the committee that wants this type of "rule" for their grand entries is a committee that either doesn't dance or is probably inexperienced at running a contest powwow. Like someone mentioned, there are many tribes that wear their hair down, many women who do or don't wear plumes or feathers either according to their tribal ways or personal beliefs, different styles of headdresses for men, etc.

    I know they are trying to discourage coming in half-dressed, but is it the committee's job to police the personal habits of their participants? I can't remember the last time I came in half-braided...I have my hair done in some appropriate fashion even if its only in one braid for every grand entry and I have my plumes on. If its windy or rainy I will not wear my feathers during grand entry. I've either made or helped make all of my sets of beadwork, so I'm not about to ruin it with water or mud just for a few points, so either the galoshes or the running shoes come out. But that is my own personal preference and choice. I feel the best when I am all ready. I feel rugged if I have to leave stuff off because I've run out of time. I don't do it for the points, or threat of a point deduction...I do that just for me. My husband will just miss grand entry if we are running late and he doesn't have time to get completely ready, he will NOT come in half-azzed. But that is us, that is our personal preference. We let other people be the judge about what they like to see and how they view people that come in with fuzzy hair or with their jeans visible beneath their skirts or aprons...lol. Like someone said earlier, it is completely a matter of self-respect, respect for your dance style, and respect for the arena.

    I see plenty of dancers that come in every grand entry without their plumes, and I know they wear them during contest. Instead of wondering if they are too lazy to put them in, maybe they don't want to wear them until contest because that's how they feel is the best way to take care of their things. I know women who normally wear plumes won't wear them at any time during a powwow during certain times due to personal beliefs. How is a committee going to determine all these different things?

    There are enough things for the arena staff to attend to during a contest powwow....have the committee police these things if they feel its so important, but they'd better be ready for a huge backlash, AND they should make sure the arena staff knows what they are doing and why...because its the arena staff that are going to bear the brunt of the decisions the committee makes as to who gets their points and who doesn't.

    I was at Mandaree powwow one year long time ago when they tried to do this. It caused alot of confusion, alot of suspicion of the number takers, plus it seemed like the grand entries took forever!!! Lol....then I heard dancers complaining that they were all dressed but weren't sure if their number was left off out of spite, so and so got their number taken and they didn't have their bustles on...blah, blah, blah....can you see what your powwow is in for if you do this? Lol.

    Don't even get me started on the whole flashy regalia thing. I work hard to get my outfit the way I want it, as many other dancers do, with lots of color, pretty designs and fancy fabric, and I just started out way back in the day like everyone else with plain buckskin leggins and mocs and a cloth/ribbon cape. Anyone can do the same thing and I don't want to hear any excuses for not having a nice outfit. I had to teach myself how to sew and bead, I didn't have parents that knew how to do all that. Their biggest contribution to my dancing was getting people to make my first set of beadwork and dresses and shawls...I took it from there. That is a totally different topic for a different thread because that is all about paying your dues.

    Leave a comment:


  • eap7
    replied
    I don't think there's any way to define what is "full regalia" because like people have brought up, there are so many different types of regalia. Even with beadwork, some people have the whole 9 yards and others just a hair barrette. And there's no way to tell why someone's hair isn't braided or roach isn't on, unless you ask them. I don't really see the grand entry line as the time or place to ask, so I don't really think this is that big of an issue. Hopefully people can be trusted to be fully dressed enough so they don't embarrass themselves!

    Leave a comment:


  • Lakota_winyan
    replied
    Originally posted by Ivanasnagu View Post
    I could not agree more. It's all about respect and the way you were raised. I personally wouldn't consider making grand entry 1/2 dressed nor would I sit in an arena and have someone braid my hair, to me that is tacky. I know how long it takes me to get ready. But I've seen many people that come out without a roach on or a t-dress without a belt, or hair in a knot trying to make their points. The deduct points dilemna should be the decision of the committee and AD. Not a tabulator.

    One more note, to deduct points because someone isn't braided up is a huge assumption. I have Kiowa friends that do not braid their hair all the time. Sometimes they wear it down with just a plume. So, just because someone is not braided up doesn't mean she is not complete.
    I was gonna say that I was watching this one video I wonl't say which area but there were women in there who wore their hair out..w/plumes so what would be the assumption there? I think when posters say full regalia..what exactly do they mean..mostly it comes down to the men who have the headroaches etc.. but then some tribes do not wear head roaches either so what then...?? and a big pw u possibly couldn't stand there and deduct pts for that could u???

    Leave a comment:


  • Ivanasnagu
    replied
    Originally posted by buckskin pantyhose View Post
    i think it's also a matter of personal respect and respect for your dance style and outfit. All of us know how long it takes for us to get ready, how long it takes for you to do your hair, lace your mocs, belt, etc. There really isn't a reason to be 1/2 dressed in G.E. other than unexpected happenings, traffic, work, accidents, blowouts/busted beads, etc.
    I really like that a lot of women have day dresses and fierce contest dresses, it gives us a chance to show a variety in our styles and that includes everything right down to the accessories.
    I know a lot of women wear less accessories with thier day outfits, they tend to be a little more "traditional" and less flashy. Then the big guns come out during the evening session.
    personally i don't like to see gals with their hair 1/2 braided or in a rugged ponytail, but I think that's because of the way I was raised and how I was taught to take care of my things. There's only been a time or two where I went into G.E. without my hair done or with out my fan & i felt so out of place and uncomfortable...

    then again participating at contest powwows leaves you at the committees mercy. make you just through hoops for that $1200 first place money! HAHAHA!
    I could not agree more. It's all about respect and the way you were raised. I personally wouldn't consider making grand entry 1/2 dressed nor would I sit in an arena and have someone braid my hair, to me that is tacky. I know how long it takes me to get ready. But I've seen many people that come out without a roach on or a t-dress without a belt, or hair in a knot trying to make their points. The deduct points dilemna should be the decision of the committee and AD. Not a tabulator.

    One more note, to deduct points because someone isn't braided up is a huge assumption. I have Kiowa friends that do not braid their hair all the time. Sometimes they wear it down with just a plume. So, just because someone is not braided up doesn't mean she is not complete.

    Leave a comment:


  • buckskin pantyhose
    replied
    i think it's also a matter of personal respect and respect for your dance style and outfit. All of us know how long it takes for us to get ready, how long it takes for you to do your hair, lace your mocs, belt, etc. There really isn't a reason to be 1/2 dressed in G.E. other than unexpected happenings, traffic, work, accidents, blowouts/busted beads, etc.
    I really like that a lot of women have day dresses and fierce contest dresses, it gives us a chance to show a variety in our styles and that includes everything right down to the accessories.
    I know a lot of women wear less accessories with thier day outfits, they tend to be a little more "traditional" and less flashy. Then the big guns come out during the evening session.
    personally i don't like to see gals with their hair 1/2 braided or in a rugged ponytail, but I think that's because of the way I was raised and how I was taught to take care of my things. There's only been a time or two where I went into G.E. without my hair done or with out my fan & i felt so out of place and uncomfortable...

    then again participating at contest powwows leaves you at the committees mercy. make you just through hoops for that $1200 first place money! HAHAHA!

    Leave a comment:


  • Ivanasnagu
    replied
    [QUOTE=blueskysmom;1229701]The dance arena belongs to the Arena Director. That is why he has been selected because he has that knowledge. There shouldn't be anyone questioning him. QUOTE]

    Lulululu

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  • chipster
    replied
    What about those dancers that are also singers. All they do is go up & tell the number takers that they are singing for GE & they don't even have to participate in GE. They're not fully dressed. Hmm. It should be the dancer's responsibility to be ready at said GE times. At some contest powwows, a dancer must be in full regalia to receive their prize money. That means all dancers with bustle, roach, crown, or shawl on. Because it was either on the flyer or the MC had made an announcement before winners announced. If not, they won't receive winnings until done so.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nezbah
    replied
    Originally posted by superndngyrl View Post
    It seems like its no longer a dance contest but rather a beauty contest. who has all the "right" stuff.
    If someone has a crazy outfit but they can tear it up... guess they'll never win.
    LMAOH!!!!!!!!! omg, you hit the nail on the head superndngrl.... Sadly, it has become a beauty contest, the newest beadwork, the flashy colors, the hot native guy or gal on their arm, the biggest feather, the largest loin cloth (aye), the biggest crown, etc etc

    Ahhhhhhh well, the world is always changing and so is powwow. It's like going into the Navajo Council Chambers with the biggest concho belt to get whatever you need to get......hahahah. Oh the bigger the better....I guess....hahah

    Leave a comment:

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