A "Fair Dance Contest"

[skybird5]

It really CAN'T be done with the current judging system. I've posted this before and I'll post it again. The most used current pow wow judging system is ridiculous. What other contest/sport is there where everyone competes against each other at the same time (not a team sport) and then lines up to be ranked 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc? It doesn't happen. That's the first thing that needs to be changed...
The 2nd question however is WHAT criteria would a dancer be judged on? Authenticity of outfit? Old style vs. new style? Rhythm and timing? Personal style? There would have to be several judges who KNEW everything about that certain category of dance in order for that type of judging to work. I also think that two types of judging such as in Olympic Ice Skating might work-one for technical ability and one for Artistic Impression.
I had an idea awhile back but can't seem to figure out how to make it work. It involves ranking dancers in a national system, similiar to Rodeo riders-professional vs. amateur. With so many 1st, 2nd or 3rd place wins a dancer would accrue points and then ALL THOSE dancers would dance against each other at every pow wow. Sort of like "A" Dancers and "B" dancers-B dancers being those who don't place very often or place in the 4-6 and consolation places and A dancers being the "big" names we see everywhere. For this system to work, a committee would have to pick 20-30 of the TOP pow wows (that is the ones with the most prize money? maybe) NATIONWIDE and then ALL those powwows would be REQUIRED to use the same judging and point system across the board.

Other than that, there will never be a Fair Dance Contest, regardless of what Mr. Matthews at GON thinks or writes, it can't happen. LOL.

[skybird5]

So what makes judging fair?

1. Picking only knowledgable dancers to judge?
2. Picking random people from the audience to judge?
3. Picking only local judges from the nearby community to judge?
4. Picking only visitors to judge?
5. Picking only men for men's contests and women for women's contests?
6. Picking a mixture of men and women to judge each contest?
7. Using an odd number of judges to judge?
8. Using more judges than normal (more than 7) to judge?
9. Throwing out the highest and lowest judge's score?
10. Posting the scores of the judges for accountability?


*(I am doing this thread to see if there is a better way of making a "fair" contest).

1. What constitutes a Knowledgeable dancer? What if that person is related to everyone?

2 & 3 & 4. How are these questions different? Is Random people supposed to be dancers? and visitors are their family or non indians or what? . I like when committees and tribes use a couple of their own community members to judge-it doesn't work that well if they are the ONLY judges because many communities here in the southwest don't pow wow by tradition so they don't have knowledge of powwow dance categories.

5. I think Men should only judge men and women should only judge women, with the current judging system-because its so messed up anyway, it doesn't matter.

6.And I've expressed before that using mixed gender judging has its appeal, usually when it's a golden aged person judging teens, juniors and sometimes adults.

7 & 8.An odd number of judges should always be used, although you can use an even number and pull a ballot for a tie breaker. ALthough using an odd number for one session then an odd number for another session doesn't always work, because sometimes they add up to even numbers-3 + 3=6, 5+5=10. Really, it depends on the point system that's being used, and the number of dancers in the contest, if there are 20 Jingle dress dancers than you almost have to use 7 or 8 judges. If there are 6 dancers, you can get by with using 3 judges.Obviously you aren't going to use 7 judges for 4 dancers.

9. I can't see how that would work exactly. If you have 5 judges and they've all ranked the dancers 1st through 3rd place lets say, how would you know which is the highest and lowest score? It would work for drum judging where each judge gives a number of points to each drum, but that's not how dance judging works.

10.I think all the dancers and singers scores should be posted as they're earned, just like in the olympics,professional sports, etc. Why is it a secret what the dancers standings are? Each dancer should know as they earn points and how many they are earning.

It's an interesting question, to be sure and I'd love to work with a think tank of people to get a more regulated and fair system in place for ALL pow wows, but I can't see that happening anytime soon.

[legalstraight]

Those who grumble about spot checks and so forth are the ones that would only dance GE and contest, at least that's my opinion.
Committees were sort of forced to go to that because you would have these huge GE's then after the first intertribal it would just be the head man and head lady out there. And if you depend on gate receipts to pay for the contest then you start loosin' spectators.

I like the idea of switching regalia (although it is offensive to me at the same time) but that way we can see if the flashy outfit is what's doing it.

Also I think bringing your judges from somewhere else actually helps- they know fewer people and there is less politics involved.

[ndnsooner]

Those who grumble about spot checks and so forth are the ones that would only dance GE and contest, at least that's my opinion.
Committees were sort of forced to go to that because you would have these huge GE's then after the first intertribal it would just be the head man and head lady out there. And if you depend on gate receipts to pay for the contest then you start loosin' spectators.

Apparently you don't have kids or any responsibility other than yourself or maybe you have a wife or family that takes of that kind of thing for you. I try to dance every intertribal that i possibly can but I've been burned a couple times this past summer by spot checks. One reason because I was tending to my son. The other time I was getting food for my mom who is handicapped.

[kiyaanii mom]

So what makes judging fair?

1. Picking only knowledgable dancers to judge?
2. Picking random people from the audience to judge?
3. Picking only local judges from the nearby community to judge?
4. Picking only visitors to judge?
5. Picking only men for men's contests and women for women's contests?
6. Picking a mixture of men and women to judge each contest?
7. Using an odd number of judges to judge?
8. Using more judges than normal (more than 7) to judge?
9. Throwing out the highest and lowest judge's score?
10. Posting the scores of the judges for accountability?


*(I am doing this thread to see if there is a better way of making a "fair" contest).

If you are really trying to be as fair as possible (in this imperfect system) then I think the most important thing is to find an Arena Director or Head Judge (whoever is picking the judges) that is the most honest. Because these people really can skew the system.

Next I would say is trying to pick the most "knowledgeable" and "random" judges. I include random because, as evident on this website, people come from many different view points and one is not always more correct than the other. (high 5 to Zeke!) This is hard because you really don't know how your judges pick unless you check their ballots (which AD's don't do) or have had long talks with them. Maybe it would be good if AD's started asking "Can you please judge on who is the best dancer today? If not, then thanks bur no thanks. Or if the committee ranked 3 criteria they would like the contestants to be judged on. And this was given to each judge. OR maybe each judge should sign some kind of ethics vow, that says they promise to judge on blah, blah, blah. (It might make them think twice)

And then I think posting judging the results is good. Because it is one way for judges to keep it honest. But maybe post it as Judge 1, Judge 2, and so on....

We all have to remember that judging is a bias activity. And in all honestly I think most people really try their best to be honest and fair. It's actually just a few cheaters who make it all look bad.

[legalstraight]

Apparently you don't have kids or any responsibility other than yourself or maybe you have a wife or family that takes of that kind of thing for you. I try to dance every intertribal that i possibly can but I've been burned a couple times this past summer by spot checks. One reason because I was tending to my son. The other time I was getting food for my mom who is handicapped.

I cede that point to ya, it's just me and the wife right now. And my wife is really good about taking care of other responisbilites. I can empathize with your situation, I have just seen far too many contest where the floor was empty during inter-tribals or non-contest songs until they started spot checks.
Maybe a fair a way a committte could handle spot checks is to only use them in the junior and teen categories? That way those who have other responsibilities aren't hurt by them.

[mountainboy]

I love the pw music and dancing...but as far as contesting goes, it is rarely fair and honest. The whole GON advertisement of a "Fair and Honest" powwow competition is a joke because of the sheer number of dancers. It is impossible for a human being to fairly judge that many dancers in one category. So, at least at GON, you can bet the judges are scanning the dancers for well known winners in the powwow circuit. Anyone who is familiar with the pw circuit knows who regularly wins.

Nowadays, with the popularity of powwows, and its spread everywhere, there are many very good dancers in each category. Yet the same handful win each weekend. I do believe there is a corruption out there among this handful too. Especially when one of them is selected to be head dance judge for the powwow. They often pick other judges from this handful, who in turn pick contest winners from the same handful. Sort of scratch each others back. So the same handful win each weekend...sort of a self fulfilling prophecy cuz you know who will win next weekend too.

Man, I have written too much...time to stop. But I like Skybird's comments.

[SuzzeQ4]

Apparently you don't have kids or any responsibility other than yourself or maybe you have a wife or family that takes of that kind of thing for you. I try to dance every intertribal that i possibly can but I've been burned a couple times this past summer by spot checks. One reason because I was tending to my son. The other time I was getting food for my mom who is handicapped.

I've been through the whole not dancin as much as I want cause of kids. then they got a bit older and I used the buddy system, the older ones with the younger ones, it helps when they are old enough to help. But there are still powwows where I feel like i am running with my head cut off. Then this year I have a new baby So sometimes i am busy nursing. i haven't had to worry about spot checks, but one powwow this year I barely made my exhibition, luckily baby finished just in time, and I pretty much ran to the dance circle. I also am busy getting lunch for my mother in law & asisting her because she is handicapped also.

ndnsooner; I have some great tips that help if you need them, I struggled alot balancing everything in the first few years, but I dance a surprising number of dances now. There isn't a guy on this planet who will ever understand everything we are doing, if they did, they'd be amazed that we dance at all!

[kneegrow_native]

As long as their as humans involved there will never be a perfectly fair contest. As humans we just bring too many variables to the table. Even high end contests like the olympics have to tweak out their scoring system as much as possible.

Just my own personal opinion, I think that spot checks suck. Not everyone can make every intertribal all the time, or even sit at the drum the whole time.

[eap7]

Someone asked what sport is similar to powwow contests, well ballroom dancing is somewhat similar. All the couples dance together, and the judges walk around the edge of the circle and mark down each couple they want to get called back for the next round. Usually they call back half the couples, then 1/2, then 6-10 for the final round. In the final round, the judges then rank 1-6 or 1-10 place. In the other rounds, they're just saying that couple is good enough to come back next time. This system is pretty good, because you are judged somewhat overall, on 3 or 4 songs instead of just one. If you mess up one song, you can always try better the next time around (assuming you don't mess up so badly you don't get called back). I remember that Schemitzun had "finals" on Sunday around 1999, 2000 I think? Only the top 10 dancers could dance in the finals and then the actual places were determined. This is the only powwow that I'm aware of that does anything similar, with everyone dancing for some of the powwow and less dancing on Sunday. I don't know if I think its a good idea, but I do think it makes the powwow less social and more professional, like a professional sporting event. Maybe it would be useful to have a "pro powwow" sometime! All contests, all the time!

[shawndaes]

But is that really "fair" to the dancers who are parents and have their children to tend to?

Yes, proper time management. I know a single mother with many children who makes it in 99% of intertribals. The kids are in the arena with her.
The committee sets aside time for breaks, and you get breaks when there's a hoop dancer or exhibition thats not yours. I understand that there are circumstances that you can't put off (breastfeeding a baby, helping your elders etc) and thats when it stinks. I will stick with my opinion of spot checks cause it looks pitiful out there when only 10 out of 85 dancers are out there.

Sort of like "A" Dancers and "B" dancers-B dancers being those who don't place very often or place in the 4-6 and consolation places and A dancers being the "big" names we see everywhere. For this system to work, a committee would have to pick 20-30 of the TOP pow wows (that is the ones with the most prize money? maybe) NATIONWIDE and then ALL those powwows would be REQUIRED to use the same judging and point system across the board.

Is this fair to the dancers who are good and can't afford to travel. I've seen dancers who are just as good as a "top name" but they don't have the money and they can't take off work to go to a 4 day pw 500 miles away. I think this concept needs some major tweeking.

[BizDawg]

Why hate the player or the game?

There are those who p-w every weekend. They travel together. Stay together. Go to the 9 together. That's cool and it's always nice to see them, shake hands and visit.

As a part-time p-w guy with a full-time job, I'd be dumb to expect to place higher. When you're on the road, you band together. If I ain't out there as often... well, that's just the way things are. Gonna blame 'em for being friends? Call 'em corrupt? I don't know if I agree with that...

Many of these people have "put in the time" and inspired some of us to get off our lazy behinds... I'm thankful they are there.

Example: There's guys who play noon ball here at home. I hardly ever get over there. But when I do, the game is always going. Lots of the same guys. When it comes time to picking teams, guess what? - I ain't the first guy picked. They pick the homies that are always there. I can ball better than lots of 'em. But that's just life. If I wanted to get picked first, I need to make some different choices (like being there more often). I put things on me and my actions. Not the system. It ain't gonna change anyways...

[50cal]

thinking out here.............what about hiring fulltime judges for the powwow from different parts of indian country and they do the high/low toss, make points available without the fee....(unless you're gonna be a total ***hole about it)....and knowing how people don't like spot checks, but maybe put like a minimum you need to enter???....set criteria, certain number of spot checks, GE (definitely), and I now there will be some having a problem to this but it makes it fair to me count late registration by deducting points, have the dancer or drum register with the head judge....understandably sounds like a lot of work for a committee, but if you have enough on hand that will work with each other, i think you could pull it off......oh another thing, automatic disqualification for those intoxicated, this happens somewhat, but for the head judge it could be an actual enforced rule...that could help determine winners as well.......and maybe you could pull together all judges together for those making a case of why they didn't get in...or having the rules explained to them....it would also be up to the committee to on whether or not they put this into effect on Fri or Sat....that way giving part-timers (Me, LOL!!!) a chance at the winners circle....

[Zeke]

Big $$$ sports due tend to have specifically-trained, qualified and registered officials...

[Ninja]

That’s it for me. I totally hate powwows. Thanks people you have taken the whole "powwow experience" and have destroyed it with self - love andf money. Yes, dancers really do try to make a living on the powwow circuit, their choice. In my opinion powwows were not intended to support dancers lifestyle. Dancers do try to reach their claim to fame, come one now, be humble people. Please put the spirit of people back in powwows. I don’t want to see this turn into a sport where someone is named dancer of the year. If this takes place someday, please call it something else other than a powwow. Humm. I thought Native People were more modest and did not value putting themselves above other. In my opinion, we should not be out their to be judged like boxers, ballroom dancers etc. It a sad day when we are contemplating how to make powwows more fair and professional, because we are taking the true understanding out of powwows.
Some dancers need to evaluate why they are dancing. If it is to make a few buck, than don’t complain if you can’t make spot checks or grand entries. Winning money requires that you participate in all aspect of the powwow. Put on your big guy/girl dancer shorts and just dance and except the outcome.
"Big Competition Powwow" are fun to watch I like the diversity of dancers and drums and just leave it at that. But if dancers view it as a dancing challenge to win prize money than maybe they and other could could ask the "Big Powwow sponsers to rename the event to something like the "The Ultimate Dancing Challenge" or the "Wild Wild World of Dancing, charge dancer to register, and then have a “fair system in place.
I have what powwows have become.