Pow Wow dance in Europe, is this against Native traditions?

[AmigoKumeyaay]

The politicians would not listen to her well-researched assessment, probably due to her being a woman.

She then wrote a romance novel "Ramona" based upon her experiences with indigenous people in Southern California. This novel became a classic, and is re-enacted in an outdoor theater play in Hemet, CA each spring since 1923. Ms. Hunt passed away in 1885.

The play is on today, next weekend, and May 1st 2010

City of Hemet - Tourism - "Ramona"

[lbgood]

The politicians would not listen to her well-researched assessment, probably due to her being a woman. [/url]

I don't think it would made much of a difference is she was a man. It was prolly becuz she was advocating for Ndn rights, which was basically non-existent. Heck they didn't want to acknowledge the atrocities committed, it would mean they were wrong.

[wanjica_the_one]

Oh no! No Ramona. Full of spray tanned wannabee actors.

[GoggenGH]

Hey this was VERY interesting!!! I start to learn a lot from this forum. Thanks!!!!!

OLChemist gave us many wise words! It would be nice to start an new thread based on it.
Many reflections can be made, but I'm far to stupid to understand all!! lol lol

In essence saying, if we are willing to dance with them, they we must recognize that they are possessed
of a different mindset from the colonizer. They would not have held the gun at the Wa****a or Wounded Knee.
They are not guilty.

Are the mistakes made by the white-man in the past a collective responsibility?
As a white-man, should I consider myself as guilty, or only if my own ancestor was involved?

This is what the Europeans don't understand about stepping into another's culture.
They don't have the voices of 200 hundred years ago in their blood.
They are not talking for the future of their kind when they imitate another people.

I'm afraid that many of the white man's life are governed by the need for physical wealth.
And many times this is done without consideration for future generation, and with a attitude of superiority.

I do agree with LBGOOD2U, woman or not, it would not had made a difference.
Off course, spoken by a woman, it made it even more hard to accept.
To accept a failure is a lot harder than to accept a victory, but it allows your spirit to grow.

Thanks to AmigoKumeyaay, for letting me know about Helen Hunt Jackson!
She seems to have been a person that understood what suffering was, as she seems to have got through quite a lot herself.
Somebody with no personal experience of suffering, would not be able to understand what suffering is.

Full of spray tanned wannabee actors.

Hey, I like your expression!!!!

Hope I was more clear and correct this time!!!
Show patience with me, I'm willing to learn.

[OLChemist]

First, let me be very clear that this is one woman's perspective. My ideas do not represent all -- or even any -- other Indian people.

Are the mistakes made by the white-man in the past a collective responsibility?
As a white-man, should I consider myself as guilty, or only if my own ancestor was involved?

I'm not a fan of the idea of generational collective responsibility. I don't think it is beneficial to pass blame or guilt "unto the seventh generation." It just breeds bitterness and resentment and seldom produces positive changes in human relations.

However, if there is one thing I have learned in my 45 years as a mixed-blood woman, is that we are *all* victims of our worldview. Each culture passes on its own set of impartialities and biases, insights and blind-spots, strengths and weaknesses. The educated, humanist secular West has some unique blind spots when it comes to relating the other cultures -- particularly those it has conquered or colonized:

It forgets its missionary roots. People raised within the mindset of Euro-American and/or western European cultures tend to forget they come with a worldview driven by 2000+ years of the Great Commission and another few centuries of spreading "civilization." The modern, secular incarnation of this is the big blue marble, we're all one world, brothers under the skin perspective. They believe in sharing -- aggressively sharing technology, cultural ideas, religion, literature, whatever --i.e. the "good".

And they think everyone else does too. When they find people who don't share everything, it is almost an affront. Particularly, since the West seems to think that a colonized people's acceptance material culture or language or organizational forms creates a quid pro quo obligation. (Powwow.com-er's will recognize this part.) That leads to the following logical fallacy: "Indians use computers -- white men invented those -- therefore I should be able to dance (sweat, carry a pipe...)."

The West forgets it's spent a few centuries in the privileged position. By virtue of having the biggest guns, most virulent diseases, most chutzpah, it has been able -- not entitled, but able -- to pick and choose on the world buffet of ideas and resources. It has also assumed the privilege of claiming both the authority and cultural competence to act as self-appointed interpreter and preserver of minority cultures, more often than not reducing the essence of a people to a mere characture.

Taken together these two can lead to a tendency to violate cultural boundaries, especially when a greater good is perceived. What people here are asking is that before you imitate our ways, you consider whether the good of promoting cross-cultural understanding is a greater good than our maintaining the integrity of our culture for our children. Sometimes understanding is accepting no as an answer.

[wanjica_the_one]

The politicians would not listen to her well-researched assessment, probably due to her being a woman.

She then wrote a romance novel "Ramona" based upon her experiences with indigenous people in Southern California. This novel became a classic, and is re-enacted in an outdoor theater play in Hemet, CA each spring since 1923. Ms. Hunt passed away in 1885.

The play is on today, next weekend, and May 1st 2010

City of Hemet - Tourism - "Ramona"

holay! take a look at these natives!

[lbgood]

First, let me be very clear that this is one woman's perspective. My ideas do not represent all -- or even any -- other Indian people.



I'm not a fan of the idea of generational collective responsibility. I don't think it is beneficial to pass blame or guilt "unto the seventh generation." It just breeds bitterness and resentment and seldom produces positive changes in human relations.

However, if there is one thing I have learned in my 45 years as a mixed-blood woman, is that we are *all* victims of our worldview. Each culture passes on its own set of impartialities and biases, insights and blind-spots, strengths and weaknesses. The educated, humanist secular West has some unique blind spots when it comes to relating the other cultures -- particularly those it has conquered or colonized:

It forgets its missionary roots. People raised within the mindset of Euro-American and/or western European cultures tend to forget they come with a worldview driven by 2000+ years of the Great Commission and another few centuries of spreading "civilization." The modern, secular incarnation of this is the big blue marble, we're all one world, brothers under the skin perspective. They believe in sharing -- aggressively sharing technology, cultural ideas, religion, literature, whatever --i.e. the "good".

And they think everyone else does too. When they find people who don't share everything, it is almost an affront. Particularly, since the West seems to think that a colonized people's acceptance material culture or language or organizational forms creates a quid pro quo obligation. (Powwow.com-er's will recognize this part.) That leads to the following logical fallacy: "Indians use computers -- white men invented those -- therefore I should be able to dance (sweat, carry a pipe...)."

The West forgets it's spent a few centuries in the privileged position. By virtue of having the biggest guns, most virulent diseases, most chutzpah, it has been able -- not entitled, but able -- to pick and choose on the world buffet of ideas and resources. It has also assumed the privilege of claiming both the authority and cultural competence to act as self-appointed interpreter and preserver of minority cultures, more often than not reducing the essence of a people to a mere characture.

Taken together these two can lead to a tendency to violate cultural boundaries, especially when a greater good is perceived. What people here are asking is that before you imitate our ways, you consider whether the good of promoting cross-cultural understanding is a greater good than our maintaining the integrity of our culture for our children. Sometimes understanding is accepting no as an answer.

Thats a novel way of looking at things(not passing on the responsibility), but those same mindsets, superiority complexes, and actions still exist today - It's not just a thing of the past. If one is still taking part today - then yes they need to take responsibility (and I understand its not everyone).

In regards to your cultural competence piece - the only people who will be cultural competent are the Ndns themselves. Non-indianz will never be culturally competent just because they are not ndn, never will be and they don't have the same experiences as us natives. However, I think they can have culturally awareness, but that would mean the would need to be respectful of Culturally appropriate boundaries as I have said before - but lines are being crossed left and right. And people wonder why some Ndns become defensive.

I think it is good for non-indinaz to have some cultural understanding as you point out, but thats way different when the move is from just understanding(watching, dancing intertribals etc) to actively engaging and participating in cultural activities (dancing with ndn-regalia whether its powwow or sundance etc...

And I totally agree with your statement of "Sometimes understanding is accepting no as an answer".

Just my own personal opinio LOL

[lbgood]

holay! take a look at these natives!

Another prime example!!!!!!!!!!!

[OLChemist]

...but those same mindsets, superiority complexes, and actions still exist today - It's not just a thing of the past. If one is still taking part today - then yes they need to take responsibility (and I understand its not everyone).

Exactly!

In regards to your cultural competence piece - the only people who will be cultural competent are the Ndns themselves. Non-indianz will never be culturally competent just because they are not ndn, never will be and they don't have the same experiences as us natives. However, I think they can have culturally awareness, but that would mean the would need to be respectful of Culturally appropriate boundaries as I have said before - but lines are being crossed left and right. And people wonder why some Ndns become defensive.

Again, exactly. The imprimatur imparted to ethnographic documentation has allowed non-Indians to presume to cultural competence. When at best what they have is knowledge of prior cultural interpretations.

I like your phase cultural understanding, by the way. And excellent term for describing the desired state.

[WhoMe]

I don't think it would made much of a difference is she was a man. It was prolly becuz she was advocating for Ndn rights, which was basically non-existent. Heck they didn't want to acknowledge the atrocities committed, it would mean they were wrong.

lb,

You're right (again). *L

It would not have made any difference during that time period if she was a man.

Someone talked about the speech of Standing Bear that served as a catalyst for her Indian advocacy.

It was the 1879 Standing Bear Case that set the precedent that American Indians - for the first time "were persons within the meaning of the law."

One lecturer said that prior this ruling, American Indians were not considered human beings under the law.

Sad, huh?

[Grits & Beans]

something to think about? yes. sad? i'd have to say no.

'hating you shall be a game played with cool hands. memory will lay it's hands upon your breast and you will understand my hatred' author- gwendolyn bennett

the hypocrisy is still there, its just not as blatant as it was in the past...

pow wows, politics, a second look at the law books: its all the same thing...

[AmigoKumeyaay]

lb,

You're right (again). *L

It would not have made any difference during that time period if she was a man.

Someone talked about the speech of Standing Bear that served as a catalyst for her Indian advocacy.

It was the 1879 Standing Bear Case that set the precedent that American Indians - for the first time "were persons within the meaning of the law."

One lecturer said that prior this ruling, American Indians were not considered human beings under the law.

Sad, huh?

Considering that women in the U.S. were not granted the right to vote until 1920, Ms. Hunt-Jackson was way ahead of her time. Men simply considered her to be a histrionic female during those years.

[AmigoKumeyaay]

holay! take a look at these natives!

Raquel Welch (Tejada) did the Ramona role once. This is a play done by actors to celebrate the book "Ramona" which has been in print for over a century.

Open auditions every year...."to be or not to be"....could be your chance!

[wanjica_the_one]

Ramona is nothing but a big piece of cowpie.

[lbgood]

Raquel Welch (Tejada) did the Ramona role once. This is a play done by actors to celebrate the book "Ramona" which has been in print for over a century.

Open auditions every year...."to be or not to be"....could be your chance!

First off I just want to say that obviously I do not know the author of the play nor any of the actors. But I will say what I believe is happening here LOL.

It would seem that individuals who are involved with this play would try to make this event as authentic as possible and true to the story for which it was portraying. It would seem that having Native actors involved would be important in the telling of this story.

Its true one can say well "we hold auditions every year" and anyone who is interested would have opportunity. Perhaps its just me but - the individuals involved also have a responsiblility to the story, to its author and to the audience as well.

I wonder if they went to any length to have indian actors in this play. If one wants indian actors, then you not only put the ad in the local papers, but one would actively seek out and advertise to the target group (indian actors). There are alot of natives in Cali, natives in school/college who are in drama, native theatrical groups etc... I wonder if anyone has actively sought out these native actors.

In my opinion it seems that perhaps its no longer about the story line, but more of just chance for the local actors to be a part of a play. And the picture reflects this LOL. Seriously if I saw this picture of a play, I definitely would not go because I already would how it would go down

Now get quit romanticizing, get back to the story line and actively seek out native actors especially if you want people to take this play seriously LOL.