Hobbyist

[_wuliechsin_]

I may be hitting a nerve, but I was wondering how the Native American commuinity feels about white people dancing (hobbyist mostly) and the Bsa/Oa. I have heard both the good and the bad. I just wanted to know what people from Powwow's.com think. Thank you

[billyjoejimbob]

Beat that dead horse some more!

If you search the archives you will find TONS of other posts about this same subject.


Sincerely,
The white guy

[Eagle Plumes]

only time I dont like it is when their outfites are better than mine! j/ks . As far as the boy scouts Im torn with that one ive seen some out there things in that direction, buuuttt my little men are in scouts and lovin it and they will be the best dressed scout dancers there!!!

[Eagle Plumes]

Beat that dead horse some more!

If you search the archives you will find TONS of other posts about this same subject.


Sincerely,
The white guy

your funny are you sure theres not a red man in the woodpile somewheere?

[lostsalt]

Different.......

I may be hitting a nerve, but I was wondering how the Native American commuinity feels about white people dancing (hobbyist mostly) and the Bsa/Oa. I have heard both the good and the bad. I just wanted to know what people from Powwow's.com think. Thank you

Different people on here & everywhere will have various opinion on this. Some have had bad experiences. Some good experiences. And some have pre-constructed views because on the outset it is copying a group of people and an outlet of their culture. By and large powwows aren't religous gatherings, but has ties to spiritual things and the people will not seperate the 2, because you cant. Therefore, at times, things are done by Hobbs, that can and should be interpreted by the people as insulting or mockery at best.
That being said, there are alot of hobb types that seem to be accepted I assume becasue of the way they carry themselves in and out of the areana.
Also some hobbs would rather do things their own way and keep to themselves& each other. I bet you can find a whole powwow circuit of just hobb dances.

It is a touchy subject, no one wants to be mocked or degragated. Despite the best intentions, peoples feelings get hurt.
Check the thread " Should Non-native compete at GON" There is some heated dialog there.
Sorry, I hope this makes some sense.

Lostsalt.

[travelingmocs]

This subject has been done over and over. BillyJoeJimBob has had to help me remove my foot a few times too. Even among non-indians the subject is touchy because there are peope like me who go to indian country, and wana learn first hand from Indian friends and do it right. And there are others who do not care and wana do things the way they want to.

There indians too that do not know there culture also and make up crap too. Sorry to say that but its true. And we can thank Eisenhower and this wonderful goverment of ours for that. And one of the bad things is some indians have takin a millitant view against none indians. And I do not blame them, but do not bash the people trying do things right, and also were not around a hundred years ago or more when the troubles started.

I work with BSA and there are people who do it right and really try to do there best. But there is also many many people who do not and it really tears at me. So the opions of a crazy non-indian.

[Josiah]

I guess the word Hobby is part of the problem, Like its a game and when they are done they can pack up and go home game over...
Then there are the ones that try to correct you that you are not wearing or doing something right (Holy Crap!!!)
I have a real problem with them period, they mostly stay at Powwows far from Ndn country and that is ok but, it still buggs me knowing they are still out there practicing their mystical new age crap!
Because Someone that KNOWS no better will think they are seeing something that is true and Right

And that is the Crux of the problem they further Lies and Half Truths and that is what I have a real problem with!
I have to correct my white friends all the time about what they see on TV and Movies and then for them to go to a Powwow and see these people doing something that to them is correct is a real Travesty.
I know I know there are truly ones that have been around the circle and know what they are doing
But....
They are FARRRRRR out numbered by ones that KNOW a Little Knowledge and pass it off as the Whole and Complete Truth
And in reality KNOW NOTHING

[crazywolf]

gonna stab this one

Boozhoo niji,

I can say some stuff here cause I have experienced it. Personally I have no problems with hobbs as long as they give me my space. I have danced with more than a few (hobbs the prevelant tribe in Florida) and have seen good and bad. I have seen some do things that are downright offensive, but I remember the source, and try to educate them if they offend me.

Also, I dont know if this belongs here, or maybe start a new thread, but... I have been at a couple of pow wows and seen more than one person, claim to be Mide and Christian at the same time. I have seen one dancer, said he is Mide and wear a big silver cross as part of his outfit, and someone else tell me they walk both paths. From what I was told up north, in Anishisnaabe country, that you do not live in both worlds. You do not mix the two religions, Does any of this bug anyone else?

Finally on BSA, my boss is a scout leader, and came up to me and asked if I would be a merit badge councilor (sp?) I found this to be an interesting thing, maybe I can teach some young minds some good things. I asked about it, what my responisbilities would be. Basically I just have to help advise the boys and be a mentor, but... I gotta go by what is written in BSA books. Hmmmm... I have not read the books yet, but I wonder if they retain any of the stuff that was written by WB Hunt. I still have a copy of "Indian Crafts" that was a compilation of projects written by him. There are some very good projects in there, a lot that is not related with dancing at all, snow shoes, snow goggles, fires, campsites, a teepee, baskets, and on and on. Like I said, I will have to cross this bridge when I get to it, I guess review the books when I get my hands on them.

Derek

[Paul G]

Boozhoo niji,

I can say some stuff here cause I have experienced it. Personally I have no problems with hobbs as long as they give me my space. I have danced with more than a few (hobbs the prevelant tribe in Florida) and have seen good and bad. I have seen some do things that are downright offensive, but I remember the source, and try to educate them if they offend me.

Also, I dont know if this belongs here, or maybe start a new thread, but... I have been at a couple of pow wows and seen more than one person, claim to be Mide and Christian at the same time. I have seen one dancer, said he is Mide and wear a big silver cross as part of his outfit, and someone else tell me they walk both paths. From what I was told up north, in Anishisnaabe country, that you do not live in both worlds. You do not mix the two religions, Does any of this bug anyone else?

Finally on BSA, my boss is a scout leader, and came up to me and asked if I would be a merit badge councilor (sp?) I found this to be an interesting thing, maybe I can teach some young minds some good things. I asked about it, what my responisbilities would be. Basically I just have to help advise the boys and be a mentor, but... I gotta go by what is written in BSA books. Hmmmm... I have not read the books yet, but I wonder if they retain any of the stuff that was written by WB Hunt. I still have a copy of "Indian Crafts" that was a compilation of projects written by him. There are some very good projects in there, a lot that is not related with dancing at all, snow shoes, snow goggles, fires, campsites, a teepee, baskets, and on and on. Like I said, I will have to cross this bridge when I get to it, I guess review the books when I get my hands on them.

Derek

I strongly believe the best way to help this situation is to educate people on the proper ways. Good luck being merit badge instructor.

Here are the requirements for Indian Lore Merit Badge:

http://www.meritbadge.com/mb/064.htm

[KoolNDN]

Speaking of hobbyist, does anybody know when the next National Powwow is going to be held? I really would like to check it out.

[Cheshire Cat]

The next one is 2008. This is the web site...for the past ones.

http://www.tipis.org/national_powwow.htm

[Josiah]

I strongly believe the best way to help this situation is to educate people on the proper ways. Good luck being merit badge instructor.

Here are the requirements for Indian Lore Merit Badge:
http://www.meritbadge.com/mb/064.htm

Then what???
Since there is no Powwow Police or someone going around checking divergence eventually what was taught will blurr and mix with other stuff and you get a mish mash of ideas...

Here Lies the true problem! In a couple of years when you or someone else with knowledge stops going...
Then you get Mennanite girls in Jingle dresses (seen with my own eyes! Rome 2005)
And all the other things that make you say Holy Cow!!!
I know that some believe they are honoring something and others don't give a crap because they are doing there own thing!!!
To teach Ndn lore to Boy Scouts and then when they go home they go back to Nintenedo games never to use it
Is one thing
But its another thing to have them believe they have been taught BY AN ELDER and now they are ready to go into the circle is another thing.

I am trying really hard not to get into a Rant and Rave about this but I have watched and witnessed what a LITTLE knowledge can do and if there is not someone there to say
HEY THAT IS NOT RIGHT!!!!
Then they will go on blissfully unaware they have done a great DISHONOR to the memories of that came before them.

And even more disturbing is, the SPECTATORS that have seen this behavior will associate it WITH all NDNS and will go away thinking that all NDNS act like this!
Thus continuing what they learned from HOLLYWOOD the greatest teacher of NDN LORE!

Once Knowledge is passed on it must be reenforced over and over again until it is second nature
IF however that group is isolated from the main body then you will get DIVERGENCE
Science Fact!

[between2worlds]

Speaking of hobbyist, does anybody know when the next National Powwow is going to be held? I really would like to check it out.

According to the press release on NMAI's website (and folks I've been in contact with that work at NMAI) the National pw will be held 8/10, 8/11 and 8/12 2007.

Here is a link to the NMAI press release:

http://www.nmai.si.edu/press/releases/national_powwow_2007_media_advisory.pdf

[Paul G]

Then what???
Once Knowledge is passed on it must be reenforced over and over again until it is second nature
IF however that group is isolated from the main body then you will get DIVERGENCE
Science Fact!

That is so true! I believe that when someone takes on the role as teacher that role doesn't end when the lesson is finished. You as the teacher are responsible for them as the continue to dance.

So yes, teaching has to continue!

And I hope that whoever does the instruction does so not as an elder or expert. I always tell people that I am just 1 person. Whatever I say is not THE right way, just the way I know. So ask other people, get other sources, verify everything!

[Paul G]

According to the press release on NMAI's website (and folks I've been in contact with that work at NMAI) the National pw will be held 8/10, 8/11 and 8/12 2007.

Here is a link to the NMAI press release:

http://www.nmai.si.edu/press/release...a_advisory.pdf

He's asking about the other National Pow Wow, I believe.