Southwest "mexican" history after Cortes

[koyoteh]

choices

When you have a bunch of lost disconnected natives running around wanting a side to choose, wanting their culture back, but not having a clue of where to turn, CHOICES become available.

keep in mind that these numbers are VAST. and outnumber natives who know who they are.

NOw thes lost and confused are seeking there identities and culture and are angry at having lost all that,

whoever helps them first are the ones they are going to support and join sides with.

Will it be other natives? or will it be invaders?

I think we already seen what happened when natives joined the invaders side.

I don't think it a good idea to abandon these lost and confused and let them join the invaders system and armies instead.

Old tribal grudges too, were part of the problem of how these lands were lost.

Old tribal grudges will keep these lands from being free again.

[Joe's Dad]

When you have a bunch of lost disconnected natives running around wanting a side to choose, wanting their culture back, but not having a clue of where to turn, CHOICES become available.

keep in mind that these numbers are VAST. and outnumber natives who know who they are.

NOw thes lost and confused are seeking there identities and culture and are angry at having lost all that,

whoever helps them first are the ones they are going to support and join sides with.

Will it be other natives? or will it be invaders?

I think we already seen what happened when natives joined the invaders side.

I don't think it a good idea to abandon these lost and confused and let them join the invaders system and armies instead.

Old tribal grudges too, were part of the problem of how these lands were lost.

Old tribal grudges will keep these lands from being free again.

You talk in circles

[koyoteh]

You talk in circles

let me translate that....You don't understand.


thats the real issue here.


ever heard of linear thought vs circular?

linear thought is what they teach in american schools, business corporations, and the colonial military.

if ya can't understand circular thought, which is bringing thoughts back around to the first thoughts and questions, then you must have a valid linear way of thinking.

but still.

rhetorical questions you can ask and answer yourself.

they are designed that way.

bad part for the person asking rhetorical questions, is that even after the lisetener asks themselves the question, they may still come out with a disagreement.

but at least there is an udnerstanding.

so you say i talk in circles? ( bringing it back around now )

why not just comment on what was said?

Its eihter you don't understand or are running.


I put the choice in your hands to decide on a solutions to the problems you see.

do you face them or sweep them under a rug?
do you stand and fight? and for whose side? the americans, or the natives of your own tribe only? or all natives in alliance for the benefit of all natives across the board?

who benefits?

[koyoteh]

grudges

i for one know that old grudges still exist.

the mexica were not liked by everyone so there is old mistrust.

but thats goes for all kinds of tribes who had old traditional enemies.

after 200-500 years of dealing with a common enemy and suffereing at the hands of this enemy and all of us forced to live with one another and moved around together, people still want to hold on to the great great great grandpas beef.

we have a chance to unify, and then fight together. and then sort things out if necessary.

but maybe you okay working in that fighting ring or car club, and want nothing more. maybe you are okay working that nine to five and could care less about native plights in other areas. maybe that casino is paying you off and kicking out the ones you never liked. maybe the military has given your family food and shelter and status, despite that same military killng natives in other areas.

yeah i know mexicas were not nice. i know lots riled up against them. The colonial military tricked the other nations who didn't like them to rise against them. and then the military turned on them. ANd this was repeated again and again by all the colonial militaries and institutions, and still we don't learn our lessons.

so do we learn our lessons now?

[milehighsalute]

ok koyoteh......i concede to many of your arguments.....i am tying now between you and the other guy on here keep it straight in my head the difference between all the movements...........

but i would like you to visit a facebook group called "real mexican problems"......and look at the HATE and misinformation spewed there

then maybe you can kind of understand why north american natives reject danzate at powwows and so forth.....they never came and explained the differences between themselves and the hate-groups that is easy for the non-mexican to associate them with

i mean check it out....they tell me they have a claim to my homeland, im not real native, that sovreignty is kissing azz to the white man, that wanting cultural privacy is wrong because they should be able to claim our cultures selling out, and that THEY are the true natives and the southern tribes are really white europeans, they put words in my mouth and then claim that i am causing division all the while they are claiming they are supporting unity .....its pretty much insanity and like you said not all believe in that crap

then they try to trademark sitting bull, crazyhorse and geronimo as their folkheros.....UNFUGGINBELIEVABLE!!!!

but its the ones who do that we come into contact with.......it got to the point where natives cant even have a civil conversation with these types

one more thing...changing subject....the whole vet thing

all of them talk very disrespectful about them, knowing that they are held in very high regard amongst our people.....not the best way to make friends in our circles

if they want to make friends with us so bad then why do they start by insulting us and misappropriating us and making us a mascot?

thanks

[koyoteh]

WTF are you then?

You sound Mexican.

I know a few Mexican natives who speak their native languages, who are in touch with whats left of their culture BEFORE occupation.

They don't spew this garbage.

i can see how that , out of context , can be confusing.

when i say WE became THEM, i mean so many natives took up colonial ways.

shoot, even some of you guys, whom some of you i already looked up in facebook, i can see are very colonized.

its just what happened. Happened to everybody. NO ONE was left untouched.

As far as those ones you mention in mexico who managed to retain,
how long ago did they spew anything at all? I mean how long ago was it that they spoke to you about themselves?

if you are alive, then i will say its very recent.

This is important.

FOr a centuries natives in mexico were the lowest of the low as far as the spanish govt and classes were concerned.
So so many natives got tired of the treatment and stopped talking and saying anything about being native.

its barely recently that they are now speaking up.

and they are speaking up because of the efforts of the disconnected natives trying to reclaim their identities, and speaking up for their rights, and making being native no longer a bad thing.

Yes, the lost disconnected native are the ones who paved the way for them to speak again.

and the zapatistas.

so its good if an intact native mexican tribe wants to speak up. but if they tell you who is so far, and isn't helping anyone, then it does none of us any good.

I am yaqui by the way. Yaquis are on both sides of the border.

but i am one of the traveling yaquis.

[milehighsalute]

legal status?
laws?

i talk about an old native story and you bring up colonial laws?

doesn't make sense.

but might make sense when i know lots of you dudes who been writing about aztlanistas on facebook and elsewhere here, are patriots and military.

and actually non natives.

in fact, so fact i have only come across one real native.
can't blame people for not knowing the stories and histories of other tribes.

of which so many natives don't know each others stuff.

you can look me up anytime........and i am NOT a non-native

i am very much native

[gilisi]

legal status?
laws?

i talk about an old native story and you bring up colonial laws?

doesn't make sense.

but might make sense when i know lots of you dudes who been writing about aztlanistas on facebook and elsewhere here, are patriots and military.

and actually non natives.

in fact, so fact i have only come across one real native.
can't blame people for not knowing the stories and histories of other tribes.

of which so many natives don't know each others stuff.

I didnt even see this until you quoted it [MENTION=171008]milehighsalute[/MENTION]. [MENTION=216264]koyoteh[/MENTION] If you had read the threads that you have posted on in their entirety you would know a little more about this native too.

The reason I made the reference to 'law' was to illustrate the fact that U.S. history and Mexican history are very different. Also, to assert that it is illogical to look at Mexico's past in order to somehow divine our own future here.

I can trace my ancestry to tribal people who made war in the courtrooms dating back to when these colonial laws were still wet ink in a blank book.

[koyoteh]

you can look me up anytime........and i am NOT a non-native

i am very much native

still getting to know ya.

cool. just checking where you were coming from.

i hear people bring up legal status a lot, but mostly in a negative way to tear others down.

i see you did not mean it that way.

i have have a bro that lives far, used to live hear but grew up on a rez and to ask people their tribe waas no big deal. It was kind of a cool thing to do.

but here in cities when thats gets asked, its different.
This is a place where gang style attitudes exist and being hit up with where ya from ? is a precursor to violence.

so when some natives asks a city native where ya from? it can take a little bit to figure out in what manner they are asking.

[koyoteh]

I didnt even see this until you quoted it [MENTION=171008]milehighsalute[/MENTION]. [MENTION=216264]koyoteh[/MENTION] If you had read the threads that you have posted on in their entirety you would know a little more about this native too.

The reason I made the reference to 'law' was to illustrate the fact that U.S. history and Mexican history are very different. Also, to assert that it is illogical to look at Mexico's past in order to somehow divine our own future here.

I can trace my ancestry to tribal people who made war in the courtrooms dating back to when these colonial laws were still wet ink in a blank book.

i am supposed to figure out you mean all that by you mentioning law stuff?

when referencing , just get to the point. tell about why you referenced. its more interesting. ANd less of a riddle and less cryptic.
I am very interested in what you said. that they are different you say. But you didn't say WHY you feel they are different. WHy do you feel they are different?

u.s. history and mexican history are different on some points , yet very much the same on others.

the invasions and colonization in the americans started off down south 200-300 years or so before the arrival on the u.s. west coast.

you mention that a lot of history took place in the courts. YEs you are right. I read a native law book that was really a history book. One of my favorite books and i am one that doestn' even trust a lot of books out there. but you are right. a lot of history is in court.

there were court cases in mexico too. shoot moctezumas daughter, married a spaniard who helped her take the spanish govt to court over land rights AND WON.
but they still didn't give her the lands back because they said it was too late, the lands were given away and would be too much of a hassle to redistribute.
yes court cases took place. Natives won here and there.

i for one do not think it illogical to look at mexicos past. i said its important to look at it. and thats because there never was a mexico before columbus or cortes. Just native lands. Use your native tongues name for the land if you have one. THere was no mexico. but i know you know that.

columbus kept a diary in which he blueprinted the methods to enslave the natives and take thier lands. It was passed onto Cortes and others.

by the time the english/brits arrived on the u.s. west coast they had some knowledge of how to take the lands because of the spanish experiences. EVen if they themselves were rivals.

as far as mile high salute is concerned. I wrote him back. still getting to know the guy.
only he so far has been well mannered. I can work with good manners even in disagreements.

and someone called me a newcomer.
I was on this site way back at least in 2009. In that amount of time since I have some new experiences, and even some of my views have either changed or calmed down or become more solid with new info.

[gilisi]

when referencing , just get to the point. tell about why you referenced. its more interesting. ANd less of a riddle and less cryptic.

i am supposed to figure out you mean all that by you mentioning law stuff?
u.s. history and mexican history are different on some points , yet very much the same on others.

i for one do not think it illogical to look at mexicos past. i said its important to look at it.

columbus kept a diary in which he blueprinted the methods to enslave the natives and take thier lands. It was passed onto Cortes and others.

as far as mile high salute is concerned. I wrote him back. still getting to know the guy.
only he so far has been well mannered. I can work with good manners even in disagreements.

and someone called me a newcomer.
I was on this site way back at least in 2009. In that amount of time since I have some new experiences, and even some of my views have either changed or calmed down or become more solid with new info.

You have produced the most ill mannered posts I have seen in a long time. You say you can work with good manners, but you don't seem to follow your own rules.

My post wasn't cryptic for someone paying attention.

It was in response to your suggestion (stated as fact by you) that we need to pay more attention to Mexican history in order to divine our future.

You misquoted me again. I didn't say it is illogical to look at Mexico's past, I said it's illogical to assume that Natives north of the border can divine their future by looking at Mexicos past.

I'm done with you coyote.

You can sing kumbaya with milehigh all you want... I am still looking forward to see your response to the elder on these threads.

Or was there something else you meant to say with these words?

"Natives north, south, and central, all share a similar history.
but some are at different stages of the colonization and assimilation processes.

If we do not learn about what happened to the natives in 'mexico' and the carribean islands, who were the first to be hit, then we will fail to learn about the stages of the processes and see where WE ain OUR tribes are at today in the stages of these processes. AND THEN WE will all end up the same way that those first tribes who were hit ended up ....
disconnected. Gang infested. culturally changed. etc

Learn 'mexican' history and puerto rican history. THEY were first to be hit."

[Joe's Dad]

i am supposed to figure out you mean all that by you mentioning law stuff?

when referencing , just get to the point. tell about why you referenced. its more interesting. ANd less of a riddle and less cryptic.
I am very interested in what you said. that they are different you say. But you didn't say WHY you feel they are different. WHy do you feel they are different?

u.s. history and mexican history are different on some points , yet very much the same on others.

the invasions and colonization in the americans started off down south 200-300 years or so before the arrival on the u.s. west coast.

you mention that a lot of history took place in the courts. YEs you are right. I read a native law book that was really a history book. One of my favorite books and i am one that doestn' even trust a lot of books out there. but you are right. a lot of history is in court.

there were court cases in mexico too. shoot moctezumas daughter, married a spaniard who helped her take the spanish govt to court over land rights AND WON.
but they still didn't give her the lands back because they said it was too late, the lands were given away and would be too much of a hassle to redistribute.
yes court cases took place. Natives won here and there.

i for one do not think it illogical to look at mexicos past. i said its important to look at it. and thats because there never was a mexico before columbus or cortes. Just native lands. Use your native tongues name for the land if you have one. THere was no mexico. but i know you know that.

columbus kept a diary in which he blueprinted the methods to enslave the natives and take thier lands. It was passed onto Cortes and others.

by the time the english/brits arrived on the u.s. west coast they had some knowledge of how to take the lands because of the spanish experiences. EVen if they themselves were rivals.

as far as mile high salute is concerned. I wrote him back. still getting to know the guy.
only he so far has been well mannered. I can work with good manners even in disagreements.

and someone called me a newcomer.
I was on this site way back at least in 2009. In that amount of time since I have some new experiences, and even some of my views have either changed or calmed down or become more solid with new info.

I've asked some questions specifically directed at you. I did it at 5:30 his morning. It's now almost 8:00.

The thread is about the 'myth of atzlan and aztec hobbyists'. I'm writing here just in case you haven't seen them

No rhetoric needed. They are straight up question. Maybe you have some good answers. It's all about atzlan, homie.

[milehighsalute]

i am supposed to figure out you mean all that by you mentioning law stuff?

when referencing , just get to the point. tell about why you referenced. its more interesting. ANd less of a riddle and less cryptic.
I am very interested in what you said. that they are different you say. But you didn't say WHY you feel they are different. WHy do you feel they are different?

u.s. history and mexican history are different on some points , yet very much the same on others.

the invasions and colonization in the americans started off down south 200-300 years or so before the arrival on the u.s. west coast.

you mention that a lot of history took place in the courts. YEs you are right. I read a native law book that was really a history book. One of my favorite books and i am one that doestn' even trust a lot of books out there. but you are right. a lot of history is in court.

there were court cases in mexico too. shoot moctezumas daughter, married a spaniard who helped her take the spanish govt to court over land rights AND WON.
but they still didn't give her the lands back because they said it was too late, the lands were given away and would be too much of a hassle to redistribute.
yes court cases took place. Natives won here and there.

i for one do not think it illogical to look at mexicos past. i said its important to look at it. and thats because there never was a mexico before columbus or cortes. Just native lands. Use your native tongues name for the land if you have one. THere was no mexico. but i know you know that.

columbus kept a diary in which he blueprinted the methods to enslave the natives and take thier lands. It was passed onto Cortes and others.

by the time the english/brits arrived on the u.s. west coast they had some knowledge of how to take the lands because of the spanish experiences. EVen if they themselves were rivals.

as far as mile high salute is concerned. I wrote him back. still getting to know the guy.
only he so far has been well mannered. I can work with good manners even in disagreements.

and someone called me a newcomer.
I was on this site way back at least in 2009. In that amount of time since I have some new experiences, and even some of my views have either changed or calmed down or become more solid with new info.

actually i wear an azzhat.....but i put it away because i am trying to learn

[milehighsalute]

still getting to know ya.

cool. just checking where you were coming from.

i hear people bring up legal status a lot, but mostly in a negative way to tear others down.

i see you did not mean it that way.

i have have a bro that lives far, used to live hear but grew up on a rez and to ask people their tribe waas no big deal. It was kind of a cool thing to do.

but here in cities when thats gets asked, its different.
This is a place where gang style attitudes exist and being hit up with where ya from ? is a precursor to violence.

so when some natives asks a city native where ya from? it can take a little bit to figure out in what manner they are asking.

ok......us natives that originate in the states and even canada are different......

we live in a pretty small world where everyone knows everyone somehow or knows someone who knows you

when you come on the scene, especially if you are not known....the first thing someone will ask is WHO ARE YOUR PEOPLE?WHO IS YOUR FAMILY? WHERE DO YOU COME FROM?.......especially amongst us powwow ndnz

and i grew up in a chicano gang neighborhood and was part of a chicano gang.....which pulled me away from ndn activities......but i never seen an ndn asking who my people were as a challenge.....most are happy to tell another ndn

i went to vets powwow in southgate LA, twice......no one seemed to have a problem with "where you from?".......they knew exactly what i meant

but then again it was a north american ndn powwow........though i saw alot of danzates there and they even did an exhibition

[koyoteh]

You have produced the most ill mannered posts I have seen in a long time. You say you can work with good manners, but you don't seem to follow your own rules.

My post wasn't cryptic for someone paying attention.

It was in response to your suggestion (stated as fact by you) that we need to pay more attention to Mexican history in order to divine our future.

You misquoted me again. I didn't say it is illogical to look at Mexico's past, I said it's illogical to assume that Natives north of the border can divine their future by looking at Mexicos past.

I'm done with you coyote.

You can sing kumbaya with milehigh all you want... I am still looking forward to see your response to the elder on these threads.

Or was there something else you meant to say with these words?

"Natives north, south, and central, all share a similar history.
but some are at different stages of the colonization and assimilation processes.

If we do not learn about what happened to the natives in 'mexico' and the carribean islands, who were the first to be hit, then we will fail to learn about the stages of the processes and see where WE ain OUR tribes are at today in the stages of these processes. AND THEN WE will all end up the same way that those first tribes who were hit ended up ....
disconnected. Gang infested. culturally changed. etc

Learn 'mexican' history and puerto rican history. THEY were first to be hit."

naw i didn't misquote you. but i see that you area saying thats not what you meant.
as far as learning native history in mesomaerica, there are processes that take place.
i never used the word divine. but i thiink i know what you mean by that. anyhow.
all the processes of colonization are the same. with some variations. In the end warrior societies turn into gangs. The people end up addicted and impoverished and then turn to crime.

This already happened to the natives down south, and has been happening here this side of the border recently. Its no coincidence.


no i have been civil. well mannered. Disagreement and not likeing what i state is not ill mannered.

Insults and attacking peoples character when you don't like something . is ill mannered.

pre judging people because they talk about a topic that you already don't like , is ill mannered.

COlumbus made a blueprint to colonize and its been followed ever since. All the phases of his system to colonize have been taking place all over the lands with many of the tribes , but begin at different time periods so different tribes are at different stages.
One of the first was to exploit tribal differences and grudges and bravado.

This is really all i see happening over and over in these threads.