Southwest "mexican" history after Cortes

[koyoteh]

ok......us natives that originate in the states and even canada are different......

we live in a pretty small world where everyone knows everyone somehow or knows someone who knows you

when you come on the scene, especially if you are not known....the first thing someone will ask is WHO ARE YOUR PEOPLE?WHO IS YOUR FAMILY? WHERE DO YOU COME FROM?.......especially amongst us powwow ndnz

and i grew up in a chicano gang neighborhood and was part of a chicano gang.....which pulled me away from ndn activities......but i never seen an ndn asking who my people were as a challenge.....most are happy to tell another ndn

i went to vets powwow in southgate LA, twice......no one seemed to have a problem with "where you from?".......they knew exactly what i meant

but then again it was a north american ndn powwow........though i saw alot of danzates there and they even did an exhibition

i been around too and i know what you mean.

mexica dance circles though. Ehh. REall territorial. Theres a lot of rivalry.

I have experienced both positive and negative intentions when being asked that question. Especially when on the internet and its a touchy topic.

first thing many prejudgemental and angry natives, (again not saying you are that , we all know some though ) do is try to discredit the other person by asking them that question and to attack their character.

doesn't mean you are like that.

but some of the people herre did do that.

shoot in another thread , it just happened exactly that way. Gilisi even clicked like when they person did it.

[koyoteh]

There are 'Tribes' in Mexico??? I know there are over 500 identified tribes in the United States. How many identified tribes are there in Mexico?

'ANyhow, many natives were forced into slavery. Many escaped and went north.
WHERE DID THEY GO?
many people do not like to ask this question. WHERE DID THEY GO?

THey went to live with natives in the north.'

This is the same lame excuse the white people use when they want to claim Indian. BTW Call someone from Mexico 'Indio' and you've picked yourself a fight.

So how tribes from the United States went 'SOUTH'? I don't think everybody went north.

'Are the north american tribes "american" ? simnply because the brits forced themselves on them?
No. Nor are they canadians because the french forced themselves upon them.

WE are not spanish, mexican, american, or canadians.'

Take away the geopolitical lines and still you have different cultures just by demographics. The jaguar warrior is not the same as the Cheyenne Dog Soldier. Take someone who speaks Nahuatl and put them in the cold regions of the uppermost part of the continent and they will not be able to communicate with someone who speaks Cree.


To lump Aztec Dancers with Chicken dancers because they have to 'make a living' is anogolous to saying (insert race here) people and (insert race here) people need to procreate in order to keep civilization alive.

What it seems you are trying to do is justify why Mexicans have dreamcatchers on the mirrors.

honestly , this has nothing to do with what i wrote. Its maybe about an assumption at best of what you might think my motivations are.
lumping dancers? where did i write that?

[koyoteh]

for the record.......i never once said alot of mexican people arent indian.......the majority of mecico has ndn stock......no one denies that

they are lost though......the ones who didnt grow up in native societies at least

they are native if blood.....maybe even of heart (ha.....i sound like a new ager) but they are not native of mindset......they have the same good ol european values.......but natives dont think it makes them less of natives

some of us just get mad at the mixture of politics and the pushiness and claim of a birthright

no better way to turn a native off than being pushy

but i think some of us are more upset with the MISINFORMATION about their history

mexicas like to claim sw united states.......are you saying that all the tribes here in the SW didnt exist? or did they pay tribute? or were they such a non-factor your ancestors just walked around unimpeded? ......please enlighten me.......and lets compare that to the respective tribes of whatevr are you choose.....i would love to hear their version.........

truth be told my tribe kicked some aztec azz.....look up the tiguex wars

i just wonder why neo-aztecs always want to drag north american indians in their disputes with the US

i agree that there are native nazis out there who are pushy.
or act like jehovahs witenesses and get pushy tryingt to recruiot.
I say native nazis because i know about mexica-nazis and yes they love to talk about aztlan. but they don't know what the aztlan story even is about. nor do they know the whole story themselves.

I say native nazis because the mexica nazis are not the only one who behave that way.
i have come acroos so many superinjuns. and native nazis in my time. usually theyse types are youngsters. or are poeople who never really got to know the people they complain about.

we had a time over here in cali whent the lakotas extended a helping hand to help out chicanos get reconnected. This is why a lot of chicanos follow lakota ways and even speak lakota words. The lakotas camer out to help. BUt many also came out to recruit and were real real pushy.

so its not just a mexica problem. but somehow only the mexica get pinpointed.

[koyoteh]

yeah its usually college ..

and i never met an apache who did danza.......


and if they were in touch with their apache heritage they would not be doing danza

trust me on that.......i KNOW apaches well lol.......they are very proud of what they are and dont seek out danza

sorry for deleting most of your words up there. i din't want to repost again and again.

i know danzantes who are apache. but no they did not seek it out. They were just living here far from home. SOme of them never grew up in their homelands but here in the city. Just like there are apache cholos out here too who don't dance.

they don't go around yelling out there tribal roots though. None of the other non mexica people do until someone asks or for some reason it comes up in conversation. OR in the case of a cholo, they see dancers and share the info with me.

and yes, its because like many chicanos, they are also not in touch with their heritage and people back in their homelands.

[koyoteh]

Here [MENTION=216264]koyoteh[/MENTION]... this might help you begin to fill the gaping hole in your research.

What is the legal status of American Indian and Alaska Native tribes?
Article 1, Section 8 of the United States Constitution vests Congress, and by extension the Executive and Judicial branches of our government, with the authority to engage in relations with the tribes, thereby firmly placing tribes within the constitutional fabric of our nation. When the governmental authority of tribes was first challenged in the 1830's, U. S. Supreme Court Chief Justice John Marshall articulated the fundamental principle that has guided the evolution of federal Indian law to the present: That tribes possess a nationhood status and retain inherent powers of self-government.

Indian Affairs | FAQs

this doesn't fill any holes in my research as it has nothing to do with what i wrote. but it is interesting and deserves its own thread.
Native History from the annals of Court Records. BOth U.S.A and U.S.M. and lets not forget Canada.

[koyoteh]

I've asked some questions specifically directed at you. I did it at 5:30 his morning. It's now almost 8:00.

The thread is about the 'myth of atzlan and aztec hobbyists'. I'm writing here just in case you haven't seen them

No rhetoric needed. They are straight up question. Maybe you have some good answers. It's all about atzlan, homie.

i looked over and over and havent found any questions from you.

until i see them , i can't answer them.

this thread is about history beginning with what some people call a mythical emigration story.

i wrote in AZTLAN WHAT IS IT thread to talk specifically about that story . Up to you if you want to read it. Its a real story. doesnt mean anyone has to like the story . DOesn't mean people have to or should turn it into dogma. but its a real story. if it washt there would be nothing to write , revere, or complain about.

[gilisi]

i looked over and over and havent found any questions from you.

until i see them , i can't answer them.

this thread is about history beginning with what some people call a mythical emigration story.

i wrote in AZTLAN WHAT IS IT thread to talk specifically about that story . Up to you if you want to read it. Its a real story. doesnt mean anyone has to like the story . DOesn't mean people have to or should turn it into dogma. but its a real story. if it washt there would be nothing to write , revere, or complain about.

Look here genius....

http://forums.powwows.com/f40/destroying-myth-aztlan-aztec-hobbyists-68613/

[koyoteh]

are these the questions?

There are 'Tribes' in Mexico???'

How many identified tribes are there in Mexico?


So how tribes from the United States went 'SOUTH'? I don't think everybody went north.

ok i found these questions. Are these what you are talking about me not anxwering?

Yes there are tribes in 'mexico'. but you already knew that.
so sarcasm?
How many identified tribes are there? would have to count. Not gonna do that right now. BUt anyone can do that if they want to. But what does the number of tribes have to do with what i wrote?

how many tribes went south? to tell that i would have to look up all the migration stories. Thats a big undertaking. Might be interesting if someone were willing to take the time to do that. I am sure people have.
But helluva lot of tribes went south. and helluva lot of tribes went north. and back and forth.

the azltan story is an emigration story that talks only about tribes going south. BUT it doesn't talk about the time when these same tribes went north. and then south and back and forth. Thats why its anh emigration story and not an origin story.

but to keep talking in terms of the united state of america and the united states of mexico and other foreign governments doesn't make things easy to explain cause precolumbus did not have thes borders , or govts, or laws.

plus these foreigh govts borders kept changing anyhow.

[milehighsalute]

i agree that there are native nazis out there who are pushy.
or act like jehovahs witenesses and get pushy tryingt to recruiot.
I say native nazis because i know about mexica-nazis and yes they love to talk about aztlan. but they don't know what the aztlan story even is about. nor do they know the whole story themselves.

I say native nazis because the mexica nazis are not the only one who behave that way.
i have come acroos so many superinjuns. and native nazis in my time. usually theyse types are youngsters. or are poeople who never really got to know the people they complain about.

we had a time over here in cali whent the lakotas extended a helping hand to help out chicanos get reconnected. This is why a lot of chicanos follow lakota ways and even speak lakota words. The lakotas camer out to help. BUt many also came out to recruit and were real real pushy.

so its not just a mexica problem. but somehow only the mexica get pinpointed.

recruit? please explain??

you cant recruit into a tribe lol.....youre stuck in the tribe you were born into......if you can pick and choose i wanna be a pechanga!!! CHA-CHING!!!!!

[gilisi]

this doesn't fill any holes in my research as it has nothing to do with what i wrote. but it is interesting and deserves its own thread.
Native History from the annals of Court Records. BOth U.S.A and U.S.M. and lets not forget Canada.

Doesn't fill any holes in research you HAVEN'T DONE.

Tanto pedo pa cagar aguado

[gilisi]

naw i didn't misquote you. but i see that you area saying thats not what you meant.
as far as learning native history in mesomaerica, there are processes that take place.
i never used the word divine. but i thiink i know what you mean by that. anyhow.
all the processes of colonization are the same. with some variations. In the end warrior societies turn into gangs. The people end up addicted and impoverished and then turn to crime.

This already happened to the natives down south, and has been happening here this side of the border recently. Its no coincidence.


no i have been civil. well mannered. Disagreement and not likeing what i state is not ill mannered.

Insults and attacking peoples character when you don't like something . is ill mannered.

pre judging people because they talk about a topic that you already don't like , is ill mannered.

COlumbus made a blueprint to colonize and its been followed ever since. All the phases of his system to colonize have been taking place all over the lands with many of the tribes , but begin at different time periods so different tribes are at different stages.
One of the first was to exploit tribal differences and grudges and bravado.

This is really all i see happening over and over in these threads.

It might be a good idea to actually read and understand what you are responding to for once smart guy.

I can smell the rubber burnin

[gilisi]

...

[milehighsalute]

i been around too and i know what you mean.

mexica dance circles though. Ehh. REall territorial. Theres a lot of rivalry.

I have experienced both positive and negative intentions when being asked that question. Especially when on the internet and its a touchy topic.

first thing many prejudgemental and angry natives, (again not saying you are that , we all know some though ) do is try to discredit the other person by asking them that question and to attack their character.

doesn't mean you are like that.

but some of the people herre did do that.

shoot in another thread , it just happened exactly that way. Gilisi even clicked like when they person did it.

well sometimes people need to be discredited publicly.....i was getting ratpacked bigtime by self proclaimed aztlanistas all over facebook and called a "white boy sellout federal agent causing division" because i support 3 things that i never faltered in

1) sovereignty of each southwestern tribe
2) cultural privacy free from misappropriation...from ANYONE even by our half-cousins from south of the border
3) correction of misinformation regarding the tribes

even the "mature" ones got caught up in "team up against the native" and they had the mindset that all of a sudden they were no longer native but now "mexican" and banded together.....before you got there there was some mexican nationalism mixed in too.....and their anger at me for calling them mexican instead of native was ironic because one of the groups was called "REAL mexican problems"

ok.....so while i was being attacked, alot of hotheads told me "well i'm apache and you are wrong" followed by threats and mexican nationalism

so i educated them about basic bare bones apache history in correlation with mexico, in which i was ridiculed so i asked the questions

"which tribe of i'nde are you? are you enrolled? who are your clans? who are your family? when is the last time you visited your people? do the i'nde claim you? what does aztlan have to do with the apache? what does mexican nationalism ave to do with the apache?"

they responded by calling me a fake white man who didnt know anything about being ndn and the classic "i know who i am, i dont need the white man to tell me, i dont need papers to prove it" blah blah blah......they did not even know what "i'nde'" was....they said "i already told you what tribe cant you read?"

i had this exact conversation at least 25 times over the last week

now when you enter a conversation with the attitude of "you are wrong because i am apache and i said so" well then you presume to speak for apaches.......so knowing the apache tribes rather well i feel that i am entitled to question their authenticity and their qualifications....especially when they are attempting to undermine the 3 points i keep trying to instill

same goes for that idiot who had the nerve to tell me he was taos!! not knowing i was taos

i asked him who his family was, who his clans were, did he vote, does he go to feast?, does he go for other dances? does he go for ditch cleaning day?.....you can imagine what his response was......more verbal abuse

you probably can relate, because you are yaqui.

i dont know much about yoehme........but someone who does may ask those same questions........maybe you have asked thos questions of others yourself

in fact im sure they have, since yaqui are one of the big 3 for mexican twinkies. just as the white twinkies have the big 3 (cherokee,lakota,blackfoot) mexican twinkies have their own big 3 (apache, yaqui, navajo)

[koyoteh]

recruit? please explain??

you cant recruit into a tribe lol.....youre stuck in the tribe you were born into......if you can pick and choose i wanna be a pechanga!!! CHA-CHING!!!!!

yeah 'recruit' . weird right?

but thats the only word i can use to describe the feeling that waas present.

now this was like 20 years ago. things have changed since.

when i say recruit, i mean like when missionaries knock on your door , or walk up to you, and try to get you to join their church. and they won't stop.

there were some that tried this with us. I don't mind the help, i just didn't like the pushiness by some of the people that came out this way.

and yes, some really did try to charge people.

[koyoteh]

Doesn't fill any holes in research you HAVEN'T DONE.

Tanto pedo pa cagar aguado

thats true too. cause the story i wrote might seem like a long thread, but its brief.

lots of stuff isn't mentiooned.

but if you feel theres something important missing that can ADD to it, or change something feel free.

but merely posting up a court case doesn't explain how it affects the story i wrote. please explain.

since you posted it , its not up to me to find the 'hole' its fills. Help me out. what hole does it fill?

shoot i can make changes and fill in holes if there is one. i like history.

well i know you did, but i still don't see how that changes or add to what i wrote.

like i said, i liked your explanation, but i feel its kind of a seperate thought. i would actually like to seee that in its own thread, and then maybe more stuff like it.