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  • AZTLAN - what is it?

    THere are different definitions of Aztlan.

    despite what some hear about 'aztlanistas" and dogma from political groups.

    FIrst, all nations had their own language.
    All nations had their own minds and power of reason.
    All nations were sovereign and had their own culture.
    Many nations interacted.
    Many nations shared similar histories and origins and stories of migration.
    Many nations "grew" and "died" but not physically. THey only underwent name changes as they changed location or formed new families and/or alliances.

    WHat one tribe names a place in their own language, another tribe may also use their own language to name the same place, simply because they don't speak the other peoples language.

    Having said this. Aztlan was in the southwest area OR IS the southwest area of what is now called, by ENGLISH SPEAKERS, the Southwest states of the United States of America.

    WHY? simply put, the descendants of the migrants from aztlan, no longer know the exact location.
    Aztlan was nahuatl. THe language they spoke. THIS DOESN"T MEAN that there weren't other names for the same place , by other nations who actually lived there and did not migrate away.

    Aztlan means, the land of the egrets. OR Land of the WHITE Waterbirds. Yes waterbird. Yes the white ones.
    There was a place called The Seven Caves. SOMEWHERE in the southwest.
    caves may be literal or not. because in these "caves" were seven nations.
    Yes seven nations.
    some say they were apaches, dine, yaquis, anasazis, etc. or at least their common ancestors.
    ONe tribal member had a dream of a land in the south and proceeded to migrate their . HE LEFT THE seven caves and the other nations behind. THe nations that stayed behind gave birth stayed and became all the people of the south west today.

    BY LEAVING, this dreamer, named MEXI of the 'chichimeca' tribe, gave up his homeland in lieu of a new future homeland south of the seven caves.

    BY SAYING THIS, I am saying , yes there is an aztlan, but NO we do not have rights to "RECLAIM" because we LEFT.

    WE do have rights to visit our cousins though. IF they will receive us in their homes. AND YES many have. Some have even showed us around at some of the ancient sites that show our ancient artwork that we left behind.

    So Mexi migrated down south and took some people with him. THey became known as "mexi's people" or "Mexi-ca" mexica. Sometimes callled Mexi-ca-no. Or Xi-ca-no.

    this is how the story goes. Free of politics

    along the way down south following the dream of a snake and a serpent, many people died. They did not stop to grieve. Instead they chose to wait til they got to their destination and hold a ceremony for them of marigolds. This day is now called The Day of the Dead.

    Once Mexi and his followers arrived at Tenochtitlan, they met the natives who were already there and mixed with them.
    They worked their way into the society there and somehow the Mexica Confederation was created.

    After cortes brought small pox, COrtes took the city. Slaver, rape, and death ensued.
    Many fled north to mix into other tribes. Many settled elsewhere in the lands in all directions.
    Over time, the people that stayed behind were forced into assimilating into the spanish culture.
    Many still to this day resisted.
    Many resisted even though they still lost much knowledge of their ancestors.
    and many lost total connection.
    many now they are native, but cannot tell which tribe they are from.
    This is because the spanish govt and churches forcing them to forget and also from forcing them to travel all over the lands.

    Many now wish to regain thier lost connections.

    as many lost native ended up living in cities, many have taken up the term xicano, or rather chicano. They are made up of many disconnected natives. From mexican natives, to yaquis, to apaches, to chumash, and more. Yes not just mexican natives. and now even natives from central america who are fleeing wars out there.
    yes. central america has natives too. They live in poverty and war. war between the U.S.A, their own govts, and gangs. OF which The u.s.a. created the gangs. not to mention the u.s. corporations that fund death squads.
    SO these disconnected natives flee. THey are refugees, not illegal immigrants. They do not have the skills or resources and technology to stay and fight.

    Many natives from others tribes who have remained intact or who have not had such long contact with the europeans, have extended their hands and ways to these lost natives.

    Many lakotas brought their ways into california to help chicanos become reconnected with at least SOMETHING spiritual and native. Yes they know that they are lakotas. But they also know that we are related in many ways.
    Also, chumash, tongvas, and yes even the 'aztecs' from mexico have come to help.

    the aztecs in mexico, or rather 'mexica', still have councils. Thats another issue altogether but they are there. They gave the okay for dance teachers to come into the u.s.a. to teach and they did. This is why you see so many aztec dancers today.
    They are all still learning so it may look weird to some. BUT they do have permission.
    NOT ONLY PERMISSION, but ALL are welcome. Mostly. doesn't matter if you are yaqui, or lakota, if you live in a place where you just can't be connected to your homelands for whatever reason, and you are native, these aztec circles have an open door policy.
    THERE ARE SOME THAT DO NOT as well.
    There are many yaquis, mayans, apaches, chumash, etc dancing aztec style. In the same tradition that POW WOWS are welcoming of many tribes and also dance outside their territories and inside other nations territories.

    BUT THIS WAS ABOUT AZTLAN right?

    well from aztlan, to mexico city, and back up to aztlan. ALthough, migrant natives cannot reclaim their homelands, due to having left to make a home elsewhere, they have returned.
    they have returned looking for work , in the same manner that lakotas looked for work in san francisco and got stuck there. In the same manner that many natives have moved all over the lands looking for work outside their own territories.

    THeres another version of aztlan.
    Because it means lands of the egrets, which is a metaphor , it also means the place of whiteness.
    WHat is this place?
    its a spiritual place. Not literal.

    The white waterbird. A metaphor.

  • #2
    Trying out thesis ideas to see if we like them?
    Take nothing for granted. Life can change irrevocably in a heartbeat.

    I will not feed the troll-well, I will try.

    Comment


    • #3
      I KNOW I KNOW!!

      Aztlan what is it?

      One time a guy slipped, fell, then rolled down a hill.

      When he finally stopped rolling he got up, dusted himself off and said "Wow! it took me a long ol time for my AZ T LAN!"

      When you are dead you don't know that you are dead. It is difficult only for the others. It is the same when you are stupid.

      "Show me somethin"

      Comment


      • #4
        So some guy named Mexi and a couple more people is the reason there are ties to Atzlan, Tenochtitlan and everything in between????

        So how much Nahuatl do you speak? Are you fluent? Did you learn this at home?

        And why do you speak and write your opressor's language??? Seems if you hated them so much, you would spit on anything hey had or stood for.

        Coyote...you're such an unknowing flake.


        Why must I feel like that..why must I chase the cat?


        "When I was young man I did some dumb things and the elders would talk to me. Sometimes I listened. Time went by and as I looked around...I was the elder".

        Mr. Rossie Freeman

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by gilisi View Post
          I KNOW I KNOW!!

          Aztlan what is it?

          One time a guy slipped, fell, then rolled down a hill.

          When he finally stopped rolling he got up, dusted himself off and said "Wow! it took me a long ol time for my AZ T LAN!"


          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by gilisi View Post
            I KNOW I KNOW!!

            Aztlan what is it?

            One time a guy slipped, fell, then rolled down a hill.

            When he finally stopped rolling he got up, dusted himself off and said "Wow! it took me a long ol time for my AZ T LAN!"

            dont quit your day job just yet bro
            "I on the trail of a possible good Indian lady and she is reported to like the old way's and she to believes in big family and being at home with kids all the time"... - MOTOOPI aka WOUNDED BEAR

            Comment


            • #7
              thesis?

              thesis ideas?

              you call it that why?

              cause you never heard it before?

              how could you have ever heard this story before?

              have you been to the places where this story is shared?

              have you read the codices where these stories are drawn?

              NO not a thesis. Just a story. Ancestors wrote it.

              did us descendants get it wrong or parts wrong? maybe. But thats one version of this story.

              the only part that i often hear different or left out is the Dude named Mexi. but theres always a dude. sometimes name is different or not mentioned at all.

              old old story.

              its usually told as the origin story for Day of the Dead.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Joe's Dad View Post
                So some guy named Mexi and a couple more people is the reason there are ties to Atzlan, Tenochtitlan and everything in between????

                So how much Nahuatl do you speak? Are you fluent? Did you learn this at home?

                And why do you speak and write your opressor's language??? Seems if you hated them so much, you would spit on anything hey had or stood for.
                hate? who mentioned hate? thats a military mans tactic. Get us talking hate when no hate was mentioned. I didn't speak of emotions of any kind. Which will you pick out next?

                WE are writing in a language we both know. THats really all there is to that.

                NO 3 people arent the ties to aztlan.

                The seven tribes are the ties to the people in the north. Which is a place called The Seven Caves, either literally or symbolic to represent the seven tribes that resided in that area. The Place was in a larger area that ONE people, not everyone, called Aztlan. The land of egrets. COuld be anywhere. Which is why no one gets specific, and only always says the southwest. CAuse exact location unknown.

                THe question is not who Mexi was , or where exactly is CHicomoztoc the place of seven caves, but WHO ARE THE SEVEN TRIBES?

                SOme people in mass waves migrated away from this area. WHILE MANY PEOPLE STAYED.

                WHo stayed ? who left?

                IF a group of people leave a tribe to establish themselves elsewhere, do the people they left ever say "come back and take back the lands when you are ready" ?

                no . thats silly. ANd although i believe in the aztlan story, i don't believe it in the same way, and many do not, as those minority group people you all call "aztlanistas". Also of which we do not call them that.


                Aztlan is an emigration story, not an imperialistic story.

                for us its just nice to know where we came from and thats all.

                but this story is not an origin story as there were seven tribes there and the story doesn not say who they are or where they came from.

                Comment


                • #9
                  well thanks koyoteh for breaking some of it down.....i may still have questions

                  and i admit i am one of those who thought aztlanistas/mexica movement, danzates, la mecha, chicano movement, neo-aztecs ect ect were all the same

                  i stand corrected

                  as far as the extremists go.....why do they always feel the need to bash north american ndn's for military service but turn around and want to participate at powwows? where there is a whole lot of vet honoring going on

                  i see what youre saying, how they just want to be let in and accepted in their rightful plae amongst us....i get that....but its a 2 way street....ive heard horribl;e things said and seen horrible things typed that were NOT respectful of our vets

                  many dont tone down their feelings about people within our tribe that we honor.........so those attitudes get them nowhere fast in indian country
                  "I on the trail of a possible good Indian lady and she is reported to like the old way's and she to believes in big family and being at home with kids all the time"... - MOTOOPI aka WOUNDED BEAR

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by milehighsalute View Post
                    well thanks koyoteh for breaking some of it down.....i may still have questions

                    and i admit i am one of those who thought aztlanistas/mexica movement, danzates, la mecha, chicano movement, neo-aztecs ect ect were all the same

                    i stand corrected

                    as far as the extremists go.....why do they always feel the need to bash north american ndn's for military service but turn around and want to participate at powwows? where there is a whole lot of vet honoring going on

                    i see what youre saying, how they just want to be let in and accepted in their rightful plae amongst us....i get that....but its a 2 way street....ive heard horribl;e things said and seen horrible things typed that were NOT respectful of our vets

                    many dont tone down their feelings about people within our tribe that we honor.........so those attitudes get them nowhere fast in indian country
                    on the pow wow thing, i think its cause most who are part of mexica dance groups also dont know history beyond their own, of which they themselves are still learning about themselves too.

                    what happened was this, there was a time when no one knew that a lot of 'mexicans' were natives, and yes we know why. the mindset, behaviour, lack of knowing tribal origins, etc, and the skewed history of "mexicans' attacking natives .

                    so when we started coming to realizing who we WERE we had a thirst to know more. and we went to pow wows. when we saw that all kinds of white people were dancing and accepted, and that the mc yelled intertribal , well we danced. ONly to find that a lot of people didn't know anything about us and hated on us. This did not feel good and many took it as a challenge.

                    a challenge both positive and negative depending on who reacted.

                    some of us chose to break down barriers and make positive relationshiops and settled to start with being 'dinner entertainment". and this wasn't just a mexica problem. APaches were mistreated to . Chumash too. and other tribes who were not original pow wow tribes. So a lot of us who were being mistreated chose to back each other up, and now we are all part of the pow wows. yes mexica dancers even have their own category now and sponsor their own pow wow. at leasat out here in california.

                    then other chose to be mad and stay mad at being mistreated. and instead of developing relationships and getting to know the people and vice versa of those they want to dance with, they come in late, stay out of the intertribals, dance their 'show' and then leave.

                    i was never like that.

                    i found that most of the peopl at pow wows look at the individuals after all that is said and done. THey don't always lump us all together. And they actually have told me good things for sticking around for the whole event. ITs been a long time though.
                    i see the behaviour of our dancers at pow wows and i myself am offended by my own peoples behavior. THis is not what we worked for.

                    but about the thing about honoring the vets. Yes many of us do have a problem with that. but we deal with it.
                    in differetn ways.
                    some voice their anger, but its the same voice that yells out when our own dances are full of catholicism and we want that out of our own dances but don't know how to get rid of it.

                    and then theres theres those of us who tolerate that becaususe we are already used to tolerating the mix of catholicism in our communities. and we also have vets too.

                    this doesn't mean we support our families being vets, but we learned to tolerate it.

                    Now i am hearing that maybe pow wows were made to honor vets from the beginning. I am still digesting that.

                    i never heard that before.

                    i heard about original gatherings between tribes from long ago on the east side of the country.
                    and i heard the buffalo bill wild west show story.
                    many of us have heard this and this only and we get shocked when we see an american flag present.

                    right or wrong this is why.

                    i liked the word extremist better. it encompasses more than just one story.

                    brown berets had to go to extremes because the people in the urban areas, the children , were being attacked. it was either that or form gangs. they chose to be as security team. bodyguard types. and allow the people who were being harrassed some protection while the people stood up for their rights.

                    they were not coming from a native standpoint though, because in those days they were barely beginning to wake up from their colonial brainwashing. But they were a beginning. Lots of things changed since then.
                    they took their inspiration from the black panthers and AIM.
                    but remember, they were kids with a kids mindset. they are all grown up now and yes have experienced more and learned more.

                    MECHA again. Kids. grouping together for a limited time. They organize workshops. bring in speakers. and party it up.

                    they have a "plan de aztlan" of which is not native based, due to the time period it was written. Many have tried to revise it, but they refuse sticking to nostalgia. But also, no one is around long enough to really change or affect anything, cause they grow up graduate and move on. so it stays the same never changing. but we leave it alone because its a stepping stone for kids who are waking up and being allowed to see someothing different. then they ask questions. THey even question the problems of MECHA itself at their meetings. THen they move on and try to solve problems outside the group in their own improved way.

                    neo aztecs. thats hard to explain. because its a generalization so it becomes vague.
                    there are some who seem to be neo but actually have blessings from the elders in mexico but because it looks so different than what northerners are used to seeing , it can look new agey at first.
                    then theres the catholic mix, which makes it hard to filter out. when someone filters it out, they get attacked for not being traditional. weird
                    but then there are the new agers. they learn the medicines and ways and start websites and hold seminars that sell out what they were taught. or they just reiterate what they learned in readers digest.

                    although i say all this. i stepped away from a lot of things. because i mixed in a lot of northern native circles too and found the same issues there. only looks different at first. but was the same .

                    no one is free from it all.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      on the vet thing.

                      i used to get real mad about them too.

                      now i look at it as a job. like being a construction worker, or postman.

                      we all have to work.

                      i don't buy into the propaganda though. about protecting the land and country and being warriors for OUR peoples.

                      naw. warriors for our peoples protect OUR peoples. and they would be taking back the land and training the people to fight back. ONce they join they are owned. They are restricted from sharing what they learned. REstricted from training others.
                      and can be called back in at anytime.
                      WHen i see vets form a blockade to stop the govt from relocating elders at big mountain, from stopping lands from being cut down for the olympics to be held, and taking out facilities from dumping into the people water supply, then i will call them warriors.

                      but i know for now its a fight just to keep the tribe alive. and a fight just to stay alive as an individual.

                      but its a job. pays. feeds.

                      i worked construction. I am not proud of that. I helped feed the beast to by building crap and more crap to house the enemies bull****.

                      but its a job. pays. feeds. shelters.

                      no different.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by milehighsalute View Post

                        i see what youre saying, how they just want to be let in and accepted in their rightful plae amongst us....i get that....but its a 2 way street....ive heard horribl;e things said and seen horrible things typed that were NOT respectful of our vets
                        Well said
                        When you are dead you don't know that you are dead. It is difficult only for the others. It is the same when you are stupid.

                        "Show me somethin"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by koyoteh View Post
                          on the vet thing.

                          i used to get real mad about them too.

                          now i look at it as a job. like being a construction worker, or postman.

                          we all have to work.

                          i don't buy into the propaganda though. about protecting the land and country and being warriors for OUR peoples.

                          naw. warriors for our peoples protect OUR peoples. and they would be taking back the land and training the people to fight back. ONce they join they are owned. They are restricted from sharing what they learned. REstricted from training others.
                          and can be called back in at anytime.
                          WHen i see vets form a blockade to stop the govt from relocating elders at big mountain, from stopping lands from being cut down for the olympics to be held, and taking out facilities from dumping into the people water supply, then i will call them warriors.

                          but i know for now its a fight just to keep the tribe alive. and a fight just to stay alive as an individual.

                          but its a job. pays. feeds.

                          i worked construction. I am not proud of that. I helped feed the beast to by building crap and more crap to house the enemies bull****.

                          but its a job. pays. feeds. shelters.

                          no different.
                          When you see a vet, shake his hand. He's the one who allowed you to write this garbage in this country and not be chastized, jailed or even killed as they would in Mexico, El Salvador, Africa, China, North Korea, Russia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, etc..

                          Keep spewing your thoughts. However ignorant they may be.


                          Why must I feel like that..why must I chase the cat?


                          "When I was young man I did some dumb things and the elders would talk to me. Sometimes I listened. Time went by and as I looked around...I was the elder".

                          Mr. Rossie Freeman

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            This kid sounds like a hippie
                            When you are dead you don't know that you are dead. It is difficult only for the others. It is the same when you are stupid.

                            "Show me somethin"

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by gilisi View Post
                              This kid sounds like a hippie
                              Trust me, as an old hippie, we would NOT have claimed the likes of this guy. LOL!

                              Well, Mr. Trickster-because that's what a coyote is, you know, I used the word thesis because you remind a lot of the wannabes that come here, hoping to look at "the NDNs" under a microscope so they can get their college degree in sociology, or whatever ology they think will serve them the best. Or they want to write a book about NDNs and want to find out some secret NDN stuff. As for warriors protecting "your people"-and I use the word "your" because you sure ain't "my" people", are you serious? A handful of your so called warriors are going to take back what-South America or North-against millions of soldiers? Custer in reverse in other words. The land will never be taken back-sad but all too true. There are other things just as worthy to fight for-like decent health care and education for NDNs-or don't you care about that?
                              Last edited by subeeds; 10-02-2014, 03:32 AM.
                              Take nothing for granted. Life can change irrevocably in a heartbeat.

                              I will not feed the troll-well, I will try.

                              Comment

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