Girls Southern Cloth For Sale

[WhoMe]

RWGIRL

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Thanks for sticking to your guns.

It is wrong and immoral for a person to sell the pattern, designs or outfit of another tribe. This is selling tradition -pure and simple.

"Cultural prostitution" is a good term for this action.

This is the same reason many powwows do not allow cameras to photograph certain dances or events taking place in the arena. There are somethings that should not be sold to whoever can pay the price.

WRONG IS WRONG!
:NoNo

[tiBBy]

Ok...ALL YA'ALL "traditional natives" need to step back and take a chill pill....CULTURAL PROSTITUTION...ZZZZiiifff!

ZZzzz...trading has been a long tradition of american indian tribes...WHY do you think many things are similar in designs and patterns? What exactly is a "traditional" cheorkee dress? Is it made out of fabric? Did you buy it at a FABRIC STORE? So then how traditional really are you talking about? BUUHH~! All you all need to think before you critisize:Yell

[WhoMe]

AGREED, the indigenous people of N. America. traded.

But this type of trading was a mutual agreement between the owner (or person who has the right to possess) and the adaptee.

In this case, a Chickasaw/Choctaw is having an Eastern Cherokee sell a Otoe patterned dress.

Is this ethical?

If a dealer out in NC sold Shoshone buckskin dresses to whoever could afford it, it would hurt and offend Shoshone people who got wind of it, wouldn't it?

About the question of "what is a traditional Cherokee dress?"

Well how far back do you want to go historically?

Back to when they wore skins and went topless????

Most southeastern tribes did this, depending on how far back you want to consider "tradition." I'm not trying to be sarcastic. Just a historical tidbit.

[Homalosa]

Originally posted by rwgirl
I may seem radical, but don't you have to be a certain tribe to be wearing ribbonwork applique? My goodness, what is the pow wow world coming to when you can buy someone's tribal regalia on the net? LOL but seriously, what tribe will just sell thier rights to a regalia on the pow wows.com cloth board? It's a sad day in oklahoma.

I was taught that you have to get permission to wear an outfit outside of your own tribe. Therefore even though a Kiowa dancer taught me to dance, I still asked for permission to wear the T dress. Now I have both a Kiowa T dress and a Chickasaw Stomp Dress. I contest in the T dress but have to be careful because there's an Elder who requests that I wear my stomp dress whenever she's around. So I always bring both dresses and am proud to wear both. My daughter wears the stomp dress and will have to ask permission to wear otherwise too.

Just wondering what you thought RWGirl, because I don't find you radical at all, but quite knowledgeable.

[tiBBy]

Ethical according to what? YOUR standards...obviously not.

However I see no problem with her selling the dress no matter what its orgin. It would be a different case if the dress was an heirloom of some sort, passed down from generation to generation, is this the case? NO. The dress was made simply for sale...

i see your profile, you go to powwows, take a look around and see the different dancers from different tribes participating in the same category. I am just simply stating the obvious and your comment of "cultural prostitution" is just plain ignorant. :( if you don't agree with the fact that other tribes participate in different forms of dance then why POWWOW?

Myself, when i see someone from a different tribe tearin it up in a different category at a powwow i like it...it means they took the time to perfect the dance WITH RESPECT and make OR PURCHASE thier regalia to participate in that specific category. I see no disrespect in that....

Back to the subject of the dress for sale...If you don't like it....or agree with it...then don't buy it. I am sure who ever purchases this dress will wear it with pride and respect. Hopefully they will know something of its origin and its style of dance...OR they will at least take the time to learn it properly.:Angel2

I guess...THAT IS THE RISK OF MAKING A SALE (?) whether YOU agree with it or not.

GO WITH THE FLO iz all i am sayin....just my point of view.

[tiBBy]

Well i guess TBC on Monday....I am outtie to the Julyamsh Powwow in post falls idaho to go watch this navajo boy tear it up in the chicken dance category.....

Hmmm...a southern boy TEARIN IT UP in a northern style of dance...interesting...GO FIGURE...:p

[WhoMe]

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There are those of us who believe our tribal culture is not for sale. And there are people like yourself, who believe for the sake of powwows anything can be sold.

Does this apply to personal, family designs, etc.? Or is this sellable too?

It doesn't take an educated individual to see that dancers of all tribes are dancing in all catagories. Most contemporary outfits do not reflect tribal affiliation.

"If I wanted my daughter to wear a jingle dress, I would make arrangements to properly feast, giveaway and have this dress prayed over by an Anishnabe who has this right. Not purchase one over the internet."

Also, you are assuming a person wearing another tribes cloths will wear them with respect and know something about what they are wearing. Think again . . .

It's a good thing you are not working for the government agency that wants to buy the Black Hills and celebrate by having an ndn powwow once it is purchased.

[MayChe]

Also, you are assuming a person wearing another tribes cloths will wear them with respect and know something about what they are wearing. Think again . . .

so are you saying that anyone who would buy the dress wouldn't know wouldn't wear it with respect and know something about what they are wearing? are you assuming that that person won't know anything about the dress?

[WhoMe]

No that's not what I'm saying.

What I am saying is that if you sell ANYTHING, you can't assume it will be used with respect. Collectors on the internet buy Indian cloths, jewerly, artifacts and tribal ID cards.

This is what I am addressing.

A dress with "tribal specific designs" could be bought simply because: "it is pretty or it matches my hairties or I want to dance in the women's southern cloth division but first I need an outfit."

Powwow consumers buy things for these reasons.

I applaud people who DO get permission to wear another tribes clothing before they dance in them.

"I certainly wouldn't go to Crow Fair wearing a Crow outfit, because a Crow did not give me the right to wear
THEIR cloths."

TJFS: What style do you dance and what do you know about your outfit?

[LumbeeTurtle]

i dont think that the original poster thought that so much controversy would come from this... interesting points made, but as always it's up to the individual to make the right decision for themselves, and deal with the consequences.

[MayChe]

i dance jingle and traditional. I was given permission to wear the jingle dress by an Ojibwe elder. Also I wear Cherokee (my nation) and Lakota style dresses. I also got permission to wear the Lakota style dress from a Lakota elder. I was always taught to wear another nation's regalia you'd have to ask permission.

I only asked that becuz you made it seem like anyone who would buy the dress would just be buying it so that they could dance in the southern style, but now you have cleared that up.

And what's wrong about buying off the internet?

[Okwataga]

well look over at the trading post and there's a contemporaryt jingle outfit for sale

say i could buy it, anyone can buy it

you can go to some pow wows and people will have either older outifts for sale for whatever reason, either they have a new outfit or they outgrew the old one......

people can go to wal-mart and buy material and maybe they are a good seamstress and copy a dress they saw posted anywhere on the internet and make the same style dress

yes we all agree that family and tribal designs should stay among the proper tribe and family, unless given permission by them to someone not of that family or tribe we all agree on this.

it is up to the person to do the right thing you cannot control the world nor how others think and view what is correct or proper.

you can only help those along the way to do so. at any age one who knows better should help those that don't know any better and are looking for help

you can talk about wannabees and those corrupting the native american values, but what will you do personally? besides get on this board and piss on everyone with out asking questions of them first and just assuming the worst as always.

but like fancystar said its a comp dress for sale

[WhoMe]

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Just because someone does something on the internet and others follow DOESN'T MAKE IT RIGHT!

There has to be some people like myself who know right from wrong and take a stand.

A tribal specific outfit or personal/family design should NOT be for sale (by someone other than the owner or from that specific tribe) in an Indian store, arts and crafts booth or the internet.

CYSA: No WE DON"T ALL AGREE that "family and tribal designs should stay among the proper tribe and family, unless given permission by them to someone not of that family or tribe we all agree on this." - for contesting or whatever reason.

If we did then people wouldn't sell something that's "not theirs to sell" on the internet. You for one, are condoning this.

You are right. I cannot control the world. But I CAN speak out when I see an injustice or something that is wrong particularly when I see other Indian people "selling out."

What will I do personally?

I have already made a lifes work of lecturing, lobbying and reeducating: students, educators, politicians, scholars, the media, museums, government institutions, foreigners and decision makers who have a direct impact on Indian people's lives and lifestyles. My work speaks for itself.

Your culture may be for sale. . . but mine isn't!

[WhoMe]

TJFS:

I was just wondering . . .

How exactly do people like yourself get permission to wear a jingle dress and Lakota outfit in Florida?

I mean what ceremony was conducted? A feast? A public dressing? Family adaption?

Lumbee Turtle:

Yes, anyone who wears the cloths of a specific tribe who is not authorized to wear their cloths - WILL have to deal with the consequences. . . soonah OR latah!

"THE INDIAN WORLD IS NOT THAT BIG AND THE POWWOW WORLD IS EVEN SMALLER!"

[MayChe]

Way back when when powwows weren't as notorious for hobbyists and wannabes here, there were alot of natives that came down this way. I had a ceremony and I was reintroduced into the circle as a jingle dress dancer. As for the Lakota outfit, the Lakota elder and her daughter gave me perimission to wear the dress and considered us as part of their family.