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  • #46
    I ask you this Who are you to make judgements on people? are you an elder and if you are then I would choose not to listen to you because the elders who offer advice and do so in a respectful manner are the true hearted ones I choose to listen to. You can call me ignorant but it seems to me your the ignorant one for not knowing what respect is. Because by the way you write you are not a very happy person you let negativty rule your life and I feel sorry for you. I wish you lots of love it seems like you need it. We have enough hatred in this world against us it's sad we let oppression get the best of us and inflict that hatred and disresect upon each other. I'll pray for you the next time I go to ceremonies. That has taught me to try to be accepting of others and a sense of peace maybe you need to get more involved in your spirituality and you won't be so bitter. I was the same way a year or so ago. No matter what you say to me I won't let it get me down because who knows you maybe one of the non native subscribers posing as native, or a bitter angry young person with no guidance. Have a wonderful day, lots of love.

    Comment


    • #47
      _____

      Sorry to "pull your tail."

      Seems like I resurrected that angry spirit deep inside of you that you thought you lost.

      No. I'm not an elder.

      But, if you want. We can both meet at the same powwow and grab "just any elder" as they pass by. Is being an elder your criteria as the only people you'll listen to? Prett-tty sad, I must say.

      If I'm not very happy and l am letting negativity rule my life, then I wouldn't be laughing at your post. Please. Keep feeling sorry for me, I need to laugh just one minute more...

      Yeah, I must confess, I'm a closet white guy (can't you tell by the personal information that is posted?) AND I am also a bitter young person with no guidance (well maybe just a big kid?) . . .anywayyyysssssssz*

      I'm just contemplating . . .

      I think I may want to make sell and dress someone (anyone who can pay my price) in an Ojibwe jingle dress (I am not Ojibwe.)

      Is this STILL okay with you?
      Powwows will continue to evolve in many directions. It is inevitable.

      Comment


      • #48
        Here's my two Canadian cents.

        I can only speak for myself. I would not "jack" another tribe's/family's/clan's traditional design. I am Ojibwe and am still waiting to start my Jingle dress. It really bothers me when I see just anybody making/wearing and especially selling one. Some people just have no sense of respect. I have seen girls lifting up their Jingle dress and booty shaking/bumpin and grindin to Smoke Dance remixes. That's wrong.

        And to WhoMe, I am behind you all the way bro, it's dudes like you who are keeping our teachings sacred. And as well to rwgirl, thank you for not being afriad to stand your ground and protect our culture.
        Got percap?

        Comment


        • #49
          Like I said before "we have enough hatred in this world upon us already without having to inflict it upon each other" And yes I will only listen to my elders from ponemah because by the way both of you talk about respect and the way they have explined it to me are two different things. So why would I want to listen two people who obviously haven't been to ceremonies that have the "sacred teachings" both of you are talking about. Maybe even us Ojibwe's have different teachings if so then fine. And to keep the teachings alive you shouldn't be getting from the internet or books because I don't care what you put in your personals how do I know it's true? You should go to an elder and if you think otherwise then how do you know the teachings are true. And not any elder I know many elders who are just as negative as some people are. But you would have to know which are true hearted. And who are either of you to tell me or anyone else what is wrong? We are free as individuals to think and say what we feel it's just sad we have to be so angry about it. I see both of your points and agree just not in the same manner. I wouldn't want a white person to be wearing the dress. But a lot of natives are light skinned so how are to distinguish who is or isn't? I just don't see the problem with other tribes wearing it if they are given the dress and respect it. It's a hard subject to be able to come to a decision about. this will never be resolved and both of you made good points we are just different minded people. and that's a gift because we are able to bring out different points. Thank you for making me think about a couple of things.

          Comment


          • #50
            ______

            Charmed Girl:

            You are taking this thread personal and not looking at the big picture.

            The big picture is "selling cultural identity." Are you for it or against it?

            It is my belief that, when powwows first began, each tribe, family and individual had something that was special that they could call theirs."

            In the evolution of today's powwows, integrity is becoming non-existant in the name of contests and money. Negative changes are taking place at this point in time and deteriorating individual cultures in the name of the almighty dollar.

            I realize that I have hurt your feelings and you are now taking my comments personally. You're right. Indians should not be bickering among ourselves. I apologize.

            As a compassionate person, I do not wish to cause you anymore grief or stress. "There is no honor in breaking a person down - just because you can." I humbly realize this.

            But in return. . .

            Just know - when there is an injustice to Indian people here or whereever I encounter it . . .


            I
            WILL
            NOT
            BE
            SILENT!!!!!!
            Last edited by WhoMe; 08-11-2003, 04:31 PM.
            Powwows will continue to evolve in many directions. It is inevitable.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by charmed girl
              I just don't see the problem with other tribes wearing it if they are given the dress and respect it.
              But I guess in this case the dress will be given to the HIGHEST BIDDER - I totally disagree with whats goin on here.

              It would be bad enough if she was selling a dress from her own tribe. But to sell a dress from another Tribe. Thats just downright WRONG!

              Alot of people are just selling their regalia. From all the NDN's peeps I know - we either make our own regalia or it was handed down from generation to generation, some articles are bought. We have been taught to respect it and care for it. If someone gifted me with a dance regalia - no matter what part of it, I sure wouldn't sell it - I would have respect for the article of clothing and for the person who made it for me. Alot of times we as NDN peeps make articles for certain individuals and it is only intended for only that particular person.

              Gawd - lately it seems like a swap meet up in here! Shame SHame SHAME.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by lbgood


                Alot of people are just selling their regalia. From all the NDN's peeps I know - we either make our own regalia or it was handed down from generation to generation, some articles are bought. We have been taught to respect it and care for it. If someone gifted me with a dance regalia - no matter what part of it, I sure wouldn't sell it - I would have respect for the article of clothing and for the person who made it for me. Alot of times we as NDN peeps make articles for certain individuals and it is only intended for only that particular person.

                i agree with this. a lot of pride, time, and myself go into my regalias and the one im makin for my cousin i would really be upset if i saw one of them sold, or not given to someone who trully understands and respects our traditions and would use it properly.

                Maybe the dress made here that's being sold was not made in the way we made ours, but just to make money. selling out is wrong!

                Comment


                • #53
                  You know sumthin, I'm not from Oklahoma and even I know that you're not s'posed to wear other people's dance clothes or designs when you haven't been given permission to in that tribe's way.

                  This borrowin/buying other tribe's designs, outfit styles, and even dance styles has been getting out of hand for years and years. I personally don't like it because me and my family stick to our tribal ways (which is northern BTW), and it bugs me to see other people from other tribes with waaaaay different ways and designs, wear our tribe's stuff just cause they think it looks cool, or because someone from our tribe is willing to bead or sew for someone with enough money. And no, I don't agree that just cause it's a contest outfit that makes it alright. Hopefully someone from the tribe that the cloth outfit comes from will buy it and it'll work itself out.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Poor Fancystar...

                    How many people stopped to think that someone who CAN wear an applique dress might want to buy it?

                    Anyway, this goes on underground all the time anyway. I think this is up to the discretion and morals of the buyer, not the seller. They're just informing people the product is for sale. Same as if I said, "Hey, I have a painted Japanese fan in my room. It's kind of cute, with pink flowers and birds. A friend from Okinawa gave it to me, and it's her cousin's design, but frankly, I need a couple bucks for a snow cone. Want it?"

                    So anyway, I think it's the responsibility of the buyer to take into account whether or not she has the right to wear the dress. If she doesn't but buys it and uses it in contest anyway, she'll just fall into the round of peeps who don't have enough pride in their own tribe's clothing to wear it rather than that of someone elses but still call it "traditional."

                    Just don't blame Fancystar. It shouldn't be his/her issue.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Thank you Miss Kiowa.

                      I agree. I am trying to help a local business here on the rez who buys from alot of local crafts people and from non-local indians who come out here to sell their wares. If this business doesn't start selling some of what it keeps buying it will end up going under and then alot of family's will be hurt because they seel this lady their stuff through the winter months. I know this goes on on alot of reservations.

                      This particular outfit has been on the market for over a year now, without any of the tourist knowing what it is. Most white people that I have seen who come through here don't want anything nice like this outfit, instead they want the hollywood hokey dokey outfits.

                      I am sorry this has become an issue for some of you but the fact remains, there is a southern cloth contest outfit for sale.

                      Since it is so heated in the discussion, if anyone is interested you may pm me for buying interest.

                      Peace out!
                      Before you attempt to beat the odds, make sure you can survive the odds beating you!

                      Why do some people bother breathing when you know their brain isn't getting the oxygen?

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        _____

                        Miss_Kiowa,

                        Selling tribally identifiable clothing w/designs and selling Japanese fans should not even be compared.

                        Not just anyone who wants to wear Kiowa cloths can wear them can they?

                        If someone DID buy Kiowa "contest cloths" on the internet and wore them in front of your women Kiowa elders - especially if the person was not Kiowa - wouldn't they be asked who gave them the right to wear this outfit?

                        _____

                        Just look at FancyStars post after your post. White people and tourists who don't know what it is can buy it if they can meet the price.

                        FancyStar - I hope this business DOES go under.

                        People (NdN or NON nDn) should NOT be selling other tribes outfits (hence, the right to wear their clothing) to the highest bidder.

                        What part of WRONG do you not understand?????
                        Powwows will continue to evolve in many directions. It is inevitable.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Wow.. I can't believe this has gone on for so long.

                          First off I understand the thoughts and feelings here but come on... things are bought and sold on this website all the time and no one raises a stink about them.

                          A few of the past items have been tribal specific ribbon work.. also whole tribal specific straight suits. Beadwork with tribal designs.. fans... Southern buckskin regalia...Northern regalia.. numerous jingle, fancy and etc.. etc..

                          And secondly... people buy and sell regalia all the time people... fact of life... like it or not.. it happens. Only thing you can do is either not make and sell it yourself... or not buy it when it is offered up for sale. That is the only thing that someone can do that opposes it so adamantly.

                          So give us a break here.. if you are going to bytch about one.. bytch about em all. On second thought.. with your point being noted.. there's no need to post again. ;) :D
                          "We see it as a desecration not only of a mountain but of our way of life. This is a genocidal issue to us. If they kill this mountain, they kill our way of life." ~Debra White Plume

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            I've been following this as well - and the one question I have is why is this called a "contest dress"? What exactly does this "contest dress" have that any other Otoe (yes it is Otoe) style dress not have???????

                            Just trying to understand Fancy Star's labeling of this as a "contest outfit".

                            Who me: I like your old style thinking.....

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Mato Winyan


                              First off I understand the thoughts and feelings here but come on... things are bought and sold on this website all the time and no one raises a stink about them.

                              So just because things have been done wrong in the past justifys allowing it to continue! I'm shock at your post especially coming from a moderator. and to say that you are adopted lakota and understand ndn ways - you should know better. Dang if she was to sell items of my tribe - I would definitely report her to the Tribal Elders. Shame SHAMe SHAME.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                ______


                                Mato Winyan:

                                I just joined powwows.com in July. This is the reason I have not spoken out against all the past items that have been posted for sale by individuals selling other tribes outfits (thus the right to wear another tribe's clothing.)

                                -----

                                I appreciate all the support from Jibby, lbgood, Lumbee Turtle and Powwow Pro for knowing right from wrong. Indian integrity should be protected by Native peoples on a united front.

                                -----

                                Luvstraightdancrs:

                                It is not only the old style of thinking . . .

                                ....... It is also the right way to react when "an injustice is so blatantly displayed!"



                                ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::( ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
                                Powwows will continue to evolve in many directions. It is inevitable.

                                Comment

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