Contests and Kwes

[SahKahTay_218]

As an "Anishinaabe" person... I care more about the ceremonial ways of the dress.. The competition dancing is fun but I like the old ways.. the way we started it....

[~*~ShanLyn~*~]

__

ShanL,

You have echoed an attitude that is prevelant among many people who have adopted powwow dances and clothing,

"powwows take something from many tribes, it's okay because its just powwows and going along with powwow fashion trends is acceptable."



Again I iterate "this is prevelant among many who have 'adopted' powwow dances. . ."

__


But on the other hand.

What I am hearing from the Anishinabe Ikwe is . .

"It is not okay if this dance comes from your tribe and other tribal individuals who have not received the "right to wear" this regalia, wear it anyway and take it in new direction."

Hmmm?

__


I'm glad the subject of smoke dancing has been brought up because this dance does not have it's own forum and there are many Haudenosaunee on powwows.com

__



*Hypothetical Situation . . .

What if,

one day I decided to smoke dance and wore a Haudenosaunee (Iroquois) Gustawe (men's headdress) without getting permission? (you can tell what Haudenosaunee Nation this type of headdress belongs to by the positioning and number of the top feathers.) Furthermore,

what if I decided to make up my own Gustawe (adding some bling-bling) in order to smoke dance?

or

What if a non-Haudenosaunee woman wore neon bling- bling skirts and blouses with Haudenosaunee designs in order to smoke dance?

Do you think this might upset some Haudenosaunee people?


__


What is the difference between an Indian who changes the traditional clothing styles of another tribe without permission and a non-Indian wearing traditional Indian clothing? (Take in to consideration both have adopted these.)

I didn't say it was right to change the style of the dance, and I wouldn't say what is right or what isn't I'm just saying whats true. I'm also not saying that Ojibwe people don't have the right to be upset about the direction the jingle dress has taken. But i Just don't think it would be right to make assumptions on a persons knowledge by their appearance.
And i think smoke dancing hasnt quite been on the powwow trail long enough and hasn't gained quite as much popularity as dancing jingle has, but given it stays around I wouldn't doubt that it would begin to evolve. I've already seen rhinestones added to iroquois beadwork.

And about the permission to "change" clothing style. Now who do you ask for that permission?? Is there such a thing? No one person holds authority over anything. So to get permission to change the style, hypothetically you'd have to ask every single ojibwe person, or Iroquois person, or crow person, to change whatever style it is that you're dancing.
Its sad to say, but there is no way to control the direction a dance takes.
I look at pictures from back in my moms day of dancing, and then you look at outfits today, and every thing has changed. You can't tell whats going to happen next and you can't hold back a person who wants to try something new.
That something new won't always be welcomed, or liked by everyone but how will you stop it?

And in your hypothetical situation, if you made your gustawe and had your outfit, who would know if you had permission while out there amonst several other dancers. You can't tell your knowledge on the outside (unless you had a strange amount of feathers), the only person who's going to know for sure is yourself. And if you feel right dancing that style, if you feel as if nothing is wrong with it, then its on your own conscience.
It would be nice if a style of dance from any tribe always got the respect it deserves, but thats not always the case.
But it still comes back to, what can be done??
And the answers always going to be "not much"

[Ruby 2sday]

.

[NDNKIDZ]

veryyyyyyyyyyyyy gooood response WhoMe, and very good points that everyone has made for folks to read.. ..:) keep up the good dialouge everyone.. :)

[WhoMe]

i think powwows these days are taking a little something from every tribe. . .

And I don't think that having neon dresses, and trying to make your dresses stand out means ignorance to the meaning of the dress, it's just powwows these days . . .

. . . I just don't think its fair to categorize people as being ignorant when they're only going along with the current "fashion trend"

__

ShanL,

You have echoed an attitude that is prevelant among many people who have adopted powwow dances and clothing,

"powwows take something from many tribes, it's okay because its just powwows and going along with powwow fashion trends is acceptable."



Again I iterate "this is prevelant among many who have 'adopted' powwow dances. . ."

__


But on the other hand.

What I am hearing from the Anishinabe Ikwe is . .

"It is not okay if this dance comes from your tribe and other tribal individuals who have not received the "right to wear" this regalia, wear it anyway and take it in new direction."

Hmmm?

__


I'm glad the subject of smoke dancing has been brought up because this dance does not have it's own forum and there are many Haudenosaunee on powwows.com

__



*Hypothetical Situation . . .

What if,

one day I decided to smoke dance and wore a Haudenosaunee (Iroquois) Gustawe (men's headdress) without getting permission? (you can tell what Haudenosaunee Nation this type of headdress belongs to by the positioning and number of the top feathers.) Furthermore,

what if I decided to make up my own Gustawe (adding some bling-bling) in order to smoke dance?

or

What if a non-Haudenosaunee woman wore neon bling- bling skirts and blouses with Haudenosaunee designs in order to smoke dance?

Do you think this might upset some Haudenosaunee people?


__


What is the difference between an Indian who changes the traditional clothing styles of another tribe without permission and a non-Indian wearing traditional Indian clothing? (Take in to consideration both have adopted these.)

[~*~ShanLyn~*~]

i think powwows these days are taking a little something from every tribe.
Smoke dancing is seen everywhere, I remember the only time i saw it was at the longhouse. People are wearing Iroquois dresses and smoke dancing, but they don't know the origins of the songs or the meanings.
I think its the same thing with the jingle dress, although smoke dancing isn't considered as sacred, but elements were changed to share the songs etc as social dances.

And I don't think that having neon dresses, and trying to make your dresses stand out means ignorance to the meaning of the dress, it's just powwows these days, even though i was never really a fan of the completely highlighter dresses. I don't think you can assume those things from people with dresses like that, also with the contemporary moves. I just don't think its fair to categorize people as being ignorant when they're only going along with the current "fashion trend"
at one point, having a bright dress got you noticed, but now, it makes you blend in, funny huh?

[3StarsWoman]

Exactly

Contemporary has already went far away from the traditions of the jingle dress. Many do not feast the dress first, many do not follow that way, many dance while on their moontime in it. I know this to be true. I mean, what can one do about it? Not a dang thing. I dont like it. But reality is, there is nothing anyone can do about it for its a mere pretty dress to many. Thats it.

I've stated in threads here before....

There is nothing anyone can do about the lack of respect when wearing our jingle dress. There is only one judge and He cannot be fooled. So tither as one may, but I am content knowing Anishnabe Ikwe are the true owners of the dress and we know the proper things to do before even putting it on. When any jingle dress is worn without the ceremony first it lacks that healing spirit, the true meaning.

I hear you sister; that's what it's all about. Right now, the jingle dress is so contemporary at many pow-wows and it's all about money and the bling (ouch your neon dresses hurt my eyes). The further west, southwest and south you go from the heart of jingle dress country, the less it means and the less those jingle dress dancers know. I think the contemporary jingle dress dancers could dance with the fancy shawl, there are many of the same moves and they spin alot. My personal feeling is that there is so much ignorance of not knowing why they are dancing and not having the respect to find out why they are dancing. It makes me so sad.

[nimkiikwe_49]

__



How far from tradition can contemporary jingle dress dancing go?

I've heard an old man say that he's seen the change of jingle dress dancing, from an old style, where it was fluid; and that makes me think of one of my first teachings is that we as jingle dress dancers keep one foot on the ground. And he noticed that people are mixing "fancy" steps, like from fancy shawl and just changed outfits to a jingle dress.

I think there is an element of respect and fear that people are missing when they don't "research" that dress. I believe that its a dress for the people, all our people, but the teachings should go along with it, and take the responsibility seriously. Like were i'm from elders could take ur dress away if you are not respecting it, once constructed its no longer your possession its a tool and has a spirit.

[nimkiikwe_49]

Miigwetch sister

[ojibwaysweetie]

Contemporary has already went far away from the traditions of the jingle dress. Many do not feast the dress first, many do not follow that way, many dance while on their moontime in it. I know this to be true. I mean, what can one do about it? Not a dang thing. I dont like it. But reality is, there is nothing anyone can do about it for its a mere pretty dress to many. Thats it.

I've stated in threads here before....

There is nothing anyone can do about the lack of respect when wearing our jingle dress. There is only one judge and He cannot be fooled. So tither as one may, but I am content knowing Anishnabe Ikwe are the true owners of the dress and we know the proper things to do before even putting it on. When any jingle dress is worn without the ceremony first it lacks that healing spirit, the true meaning.

[WhoMe]

miigwetch for starting this thread, its an issue that i had to debate with myself weather or not i can throw 20 some years of teachings into the wind or just believe what i believe.

__

nimii,

Since this is not a traditional dance to people who are not Anishinabe, it does not have the same meaning - as to one who was raised with the teachings of the cultural integrities that go along with owning a jingle dress.

I think these same integrities would apply to someone who was raised in a tribal grass dance societies, helushka man dance societies or gourd dance societies.


Then that raises the question..

How far from tradition can contemporary jingle dress dancing go?

[nimkiikwe_49]

miigwetch for starting this thread, its an issue that i had to debate with myself weather or not i can throw 20 some years of teachings into the wind or just believe what i believe.

[WhoMe]

boozhoo,

...it'll be my first gathering this year! I don't plan to bring my dress's out for competition its juss against all that i know,. . .

__

Aniine nimkiikwe,

You said a lot with this statement and I really respect you for it!

I hope to meet you and other pws.com readers at the Gathering!

[nimkiikwe_49]

boozhoo,

nishnaabe kwe here, I grew up being traditional dancer, but than made my move into jingle dancing, alot of my friends are jingle dancers too, but we had our "tour" of pow wows that were just traditional ones and that kept us hopping... It was difficult to make a choice weather to go to a competition pow wow or miss out on a weekend with this group of people. I never pow wow'd outside of the great lakes area, until i moved for school...it'll be my first gathering this year! I don't plan to bring my dress's out for competition its juss against all that i know, i'm excited to experience the pow wows out here but am also sad that i won't be with my friends.

[ojibwaysweetie]

__

Kwezanz,

This is a cryin' shame isn't it?

That brings up another question?


Is this an indication that other tribes are adding and changing things that maybe shouldn't be added or changed????

Nahh.

All Jinglers are beautiful...contemporary and old style. But I do like the thought of powwows incorporating the two categories. The Old Stylers keepin it real y'know ;)