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The Ethics of Beading

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  • #16
    BB: She shamelessly admitted to me that she took the picture's last year at GON because she and her daughter fell in love with the design on this ladies dress. Several photos are of this woman posing front and back....I bet if the woman posing knew what this lady had in mind at the time she would have never let her picture get taken in the first place.
    She also admitted to me that she didn't know the woman. So I assumed then, that she didn't have permission to use her design and at that point my "RED FLAGS" where up. I then tried to explain the significance of my designs and that I was sure that the woman in the photographs would be damn pissed if she used her designs without her permission and I wanted no part of her project. If you can believe this, she then tried to pacify me by saying that it was for her daughters graduation gift this coming spring 2006 and would only be worn for graduation....not pow-wows. I'm sure she was convincing herself of this more then me after I scolded her. Regardless, it is just damn wrong and I know I have a clear consience, I hope she can say the same when she gives her daughter that graduation present next spring.
    Where the spirit does not work with the hand there is no art." - Leonardo Da Vinci

    "I found I could say things with my beads that I couldn't say any other way....things I had no words for" - Eva McAdams Eastern Shoshone

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    • #17
      Well then.. there you have it! ROFLMAO!! You did good!
      Don't worry that it's not good enough for anyone else to hear... just sing, sing a song.sigpic

      Comment


      • #18
        I know copying someone's TM or work is wrong..

        But if you had WRITTEN permission from the owner of the design ( or the person requesting the beadwork had permission) would you then have a problem??

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Cutbead Queen
          If you can believe this, she then tried to pacify me by saying that it was for her daughters graduation gift this coming spring 2006 and would only be worn for graduation....not pow-wows.
          Gee, am I a cynic or does anyone else have a problem believing THAT?!?! She steals a design, pays someone to make it up and gives it to her daughter who wears it for graduation and then NEVER,EVER takes it out to PowWow? Yeah, right.

          Well, we've all said it, but Cutbead Queen, ya did GOOD!

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          • #20
            this one time i made these series of earrings - same general shape on all of them but totally different designs and colors for all of them - around eight of them total. i totally hate "cookie cutter" earrings - same design but different colors but thats another issue. i figure if you're gonna pay X amount of money for something it should be unique - if not it should be a lower price.

            but this woman asked me when she bought them if should could use the general idea (colors/design) for a fancy dance outfit for her daughter - i saw no problem with it and said she could. she did a good job - i might mention...

            but i too have seen people that have the exact same design - same colors but different families...

            i know of this one woman who was asked to make a full beaded woman's northern traditional regalia for this one woman. well she made the outfit soo when it came time to pay the woman just gave excuse after excuse. so then this woman decides to make a series of regalia - the same design - same colors and sell them. well they sold and now the original woman doesn't wear hers anymore because there are like three or four outfits out there exactly with the same "theme" as hers. who would WANT to buy regalia exactly the same as other peoples?
            Watch your broken dreams...
            Dance in and out of the beams of a neon moon

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Mezzobean
              Gee, am I a cynic or does anyone else have a problem believing THAT?!?! She steals a design, pays someone to make it up and gives it to her daughter who wears it for graduation and then NEVER,EVER takes it out to PowWow? Yeah, right.

              Well, we've all said it, but Cutbead Queen, ya did GOOD!
              No I don't think anyone has a hard time believing that.. just kinda asking questions to cover all the bases for if it should happen to one of us maybe? In fact I think that's why Dakota asked her question...

              Dakota... unless I was absolutely sure that they had permission i would'nt do it.. and would just tell them sorry but I don't feel comfortable copying another's work.
              Don't worry that it's not good enough for anyone else to hear... just sing, sing a song.sigpic

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              • #22
                Originally posted by chazziff
                ...

                i know of this one woman who was asked to make a full beaded woman's northern traditional regalia for this one woman. well she made the outfit soo when it came time to pay the woman just gave excuse after excuse. so then this woman decides to make a series of regalia - the same design - same colors and sell them. well they sold and now the original woman doesn't wear hers anymore because there are like three or four outfits out there exactly with the same "theme" as hers. who would WANT to buy regalia exactly the same as other peoples?
                Are you saying that the woman who made the regalia actually handed over the regalia to the other woman without receiving payment?

                hmmm .... sounds like PPP to me...
                I've found that you don't give up the item you've made until you receive payment for it... otherwise you most likely will NEVER receive payment for it....
                I found that out several years ago.... fortunately the items (not regalia) I made were for a club and were not a major expense, but it was frustrating when the club promised to pay me for them and I never received money... it was their second order and they did pay for the first order, but didn't see fit that the second should be "purchased" and that I should "donate" it to the club.


                CQ... hopefully this woman will be turned down by enough other artists out there who will tell her the same thing you did so she will learn not to steal someone else's designs.
                "Liberty is the one thing you can't have unless you give it to others."
                ~ Wm A White


                "We could learn a lot from a box of crayons:
                some sharp, some pretty, some dull,
                some have weird names, & all different colors,
                but they have to learn to live in the same box." ~ Anon

                Comment


                • #23
                  u would be amazed to see who'll ripp u off

                  Originally posted by SingingDeer
                  Are you saying that the woman who made the regalia actually handed over the regalia to the other woman without receiving payment?

                  hmmm .... sounds like PPP to me...
                  I've found that you don't give up the item you've made until you receive payment for it... otherwise you most likely will NEVER receive payment for it....
                  I found that out several years ago.... fortunately the items (not regalia) I made were for a club and were not a major expense, but it was frustrating when the club promised to pay me for them and I never received money... it was their second order and they did pay for the first order, but didn't see fit that the second should be "purchased" and that I should "donate" it to the club.


                  CQ... hopefully this woman will be turned down by enough other artists out there who will tell her the same thing you did so she will learn not to steal someone else's designs.
                  we're a trusting sort. sometimes its pretty surprising who'll rip u off. 'good' friends
                  it's been a long time, shouldn't have left u.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Interesting topic.

                    Speaking as another non-Native who beads, when I 1st started beading, I used the designs that came with my loom & one other that I found on the internet (Blackfoot, I think), but since then I haven't copied any Native designs, because I almost feel like it's not appropriate. I don't know. I think people should be educated about the Native American culture, and a good way, especially for kids, is to give them hands-on experience. But I also know a lot of people don't take it seriously or think of it as a joke.

                    So, anyway, most of my designs are totally original, & about as non-Native as you can get. They've become such a hit, I was just contacted the other day about making a book for Harper-Collins. Obviously, they want to print my designs, which I really don't mind, but I want to encourage readers to eventually come up with their own ideas. I call myself a mimicker, but I try at least to show some creativity.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I have some jerk who keeps signing my guestbook at the BerrY Patch that I am copying his or her work which it is obvious I do not. I delete the posts and this last time I posted a reply to prove it, but for some reason now my guestbook is'nt even working so I guess I won't worry about it. They keep signing it with fake email addresses the coward. My best guess is it's the same biotch I had problems with here that is now banned but could be a total stranger screwing with me to for all I know. But I do know that if I find out for sure who it is , paybacks are a b*tch.
                      Don't worry that it's not good enough for anyone else to hear... just sing, sing a song.sigpic

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by biggurlbrain
                        we're a trusting sort. sometimes its pretty surprising who'll rip u off. 'good' friends
                        yeah... and after a few friends rip you off, then you quit trusting them as friends....

                        the guy that was in charge of that group did not speak for the group and many members were ticked that he would not authorize payment for my work for that club.... he was a friend until he did that.... and only worked with the club for one more year... now he doesn't even live in the county.... probably working with some other group in his new area


                        BB, I hope you figure out what's up with your guestbook.... I disabled mine years ago because the server my ISP moved my site to didn't like it... I'm on a different server and have yet to set up a new guest book for it - too busy working with other projects .. and it's too bad that they have to be so cowardly about signing your guestbook.... is there some way you can log IP addy's on your server?
                        "Liberty is the one thing you can't have unless you give it to others."
                        ~ Wm A White


                        "We could learn a lot from a box of crayons:
                        some sharp, some pretty, some dull,
                        some have weird names, & all different colors,
                        but they have to learn to live in the same box." ~ Anon

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Are you saying that the woman who made the regalia actually handed over the regalia to the other woman without receiving payment?

                          well she thought the woman was a "good friend" and believed her when she said "i'll stop by tomorrow and pay you" and after months and months of excuses ....
                          Watch your broken dreams...
                          Dance in and out of the beams of a neon moon

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by chazziff
                            well she thought the woman was a "good friend" and believed her when she said "i'll stop by tomorrow and pay you" and after months and months of excuses ....
                            it's sad when people you think are friends treat you like that...
                            "Liberty is the one thing you can't have unless you give it to others."
                            ~ Wm A White


                            "We could learn a lot from a box of crayons:
                            some sharp, some pretty, some dull,
                            some have weird names, & all different colors,
                            but they have to learn to live in the same box." ~ Anon

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Copying

                              Originally posted by Dakota Wica'hpi Ina View Post
                              But if you had WRITTEN permission from the owner of the design ( or the person requesting the beadwork had permission) would you then have a problem??
                              I should like to add that imitation is supposedly the sincerest form of flattery. Yes, I have copied other nations work from books, but always tweak it a little to make it different, out of respect. Problem once when I changed the colours, I inadvertantly made it into someone's clan colours. My bad, I admit, and the apology was graciously accepted.

                              I use my beadwork to honour ALL nations, not just my own. Except for the extreme bigots, I have had few issues with my work. It is done traditionally (no loom), and I try to favour the "general" pattern of a nation, not those specific to clan or family. That is out of respect for others.

                              Hope this helps.

                              Fox

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                OK, your heart may be in the right place, but how do you know that the books or online pics are of a clan or family's specific design?

                                I had a TOUGH time coming up with a "generic" NW design for a fancy outfit. It finally ended up being a "sun" design or some-such after MUCH research.

                                With all the colors available, I don't know how you can avoid using someone's color scheme. I wouldn't think the color thing would be such an issue. Who did you apologize to?

                                I'm just dreading the day that I find my own Shoshone Rose design copied. It took many months to come up with my own, and even a different border for it. I know some people just copy the rose designs they have and pass them around like candy.

                                Will I be flattered? .............doubt it............
                                ...it is what it is...

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