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Nazi design in Lakota beadwork late 1800s

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Joe's Dad View Post
    I wasn't implying humor. I was pointing out your ignorance to native culture....your own culture. You only strengthened my observation when you had to go 'research' the 'swastika'.

    I would suppose non-Indian people's reaction to you wearing a 'swastika' at a powwow this summer would be same as yours. They would wonder why you would be wearing a swastika. But then, I would expect that ignorance. They are non-native.

    BTW I thought the Lakota Oyate spelled grandmother... unci.
    I have to SERIOUSLY object to you accusing me of being ignorant to my own culture...who the hell are you to imply that I am ignorant of anything? Especially my own background and family. How dare you!
    When I said I went to research the swastika it was because I was interested in finding out more about it...through education...
    Do you make it a habit of criticizing all people esp your own when they are interested enough about something that does not seem to be common place? I had no idea that this was used in my own tribe and so I had to learn more about it. It is not your place, in any way to question anyone's motives about learning more of what is in our past even more so when that entails learning more about what or why this symbol existed in my family.
    Regarding the correct or incorrect spelling of Lakota words, it has been long been known and realized that our language is not a written one and therefore any part of our language, when being translated could be interpreted in many different ways.
    So if I chose to spell it Unchi (rather than your spelling) just as all of my family has spelled it since the English language was used in our household, don't you think that is my own choice? Your spelling, if sounded out would not be the phonetically correct pronunciation.
    So along with implying that I am ignorant of MY culture you go on to say I don't know how to spell a word that has never been correctly translated into English?
    I think you can imagine where I am suggesting you go.
    Not at all happy with this thread at this point but I will ignore further posts from you and request you do the same for me.
    Good day!
    "Sometimes the character of the opposition defines why something ought to be the most politically viable thing in the world that needs to be changed"

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Joe's Dad View Post
      Wow. Your family was rewriting history in the 1800's? I didn't know there were nazis in the 1800's. I thought nazism didn't originate until the 1930's.
      Time travel. You know its true...

      Comment


      • #18
        I stand by my statements.

        Are you familiar with Slim Buttes?

        Can you take me to Rapid from the Agency, through Cuny Table?

        I think your outburst is a cover up to you being 'not knowledgeable'.


        Why must I feel like that..why must I chase the cat?


        "When I was young man I did some dumb things and the elders would talk to me. Sometimes I listened. Time went by and as I looked around...I was the elder".

        Mr. Rossie Freeman

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Fang View Post
          I agree with all points said. Especially how the symbol would be viewed to those who knew only the German form of the symbol. To those who are in the native community (and who know much more than myself), they would have a firmer grasp on the usage of the symbol without necessarily associating it with Aryan supremacy.

          As a side note, Unci is correct. Though maybe they spelled it phonically or isn't used to the Lakota alphabet?

          A question for Elo: If you don't know what the symbol truly means (to both the Oyate and your immediate family), why use it? It's sometimes good to want to revive parts of one's culture, but only if you have a deep understanding and connection to its meaning. Or else it loses all purpose.
          Fang, if you are in the Baltimore area, check out the Baltimore American Indian Center (BAIC). Keith Colston was the Ex. Dir. there. Don't know if he still is, though. I believe the center was opened to serve the large population of Lumbees who moved there from North Carolina. I'm sure they serve all skins.


          Why must I feel like that..why must I chase the cat?


          "When I was young man I did some dumb things and the elders would talk to me. Sometimes I listened. Time went by and as I looked around...I was the elder".

          Mr. Rossie Freeman

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by wardancer View Post
            Lighten up ! Nothing is so serious. your ancestors have gone on and your "family design" is quite common. A lot of different tribes/families used it. At least until it became a symbol of the Nazi regime.

            And don't slam Joe's Dad for his sarcasm , He just brought points to ponder about your stupid statement !
            Since I have yet to post a picture of my Unchi in her dress, in which only a small portion of the original family design is visible, how can you say it is "quite common"?
            Perhaps to you placement of what is now being referred to, as pertains to this one dress, a 'swastika' on other designs are quite common but for the life of me I have never seen this on any other article of adornment, family or not. Ignorance on my part? Perhaps but I need not have you tell me that in the tone you have chosen to take in this discussion.
            I know it is a PART of the of the design but the symbol itself is not utilized on any other part of my family regalia. For some reason, it appears only on this one dress belonging to my great great Grandmother. I spent the whole of last night into this morning looking at all pictures in my possession of our entire families regalia trying to find it used in any other article of clothing.
            What I, well now we as I have my whole family seeking to find out why and how it ended up on this ONE dress, am trying to determine is how wide spread was this symbol used in decorating regalia? It is not as I am repeatedly saying now, a part of my family design, it is only on this one dress.
            Had you read and understood my comments as I intended it to be understood, you would realize I said it was NOT an integral part of the design itself but rather it appears outside the main portion of what the real design itself is. It is not as though the swastika is the central focal point of the design. It is randomly placed on what would be considered outside of the main part of the design. I said to me it appeared to be an afterthought as the design, my family design, did not contain the swastika itself.
            And what part of my statement do you consider 'stupid'? In normal conversation I find it in extremely bad taste to call any question regardless of the source of the question, stupid.
            And once again, I don't believe the original statement from _____________ has any sort of sarcasm or humor...at least what I would consider sarcasm/humor.
            Ask a question and all I am receiving are derogatory comments.
            Sad.
            "Sometimes the character of the opposition defines why something ought to be the most politically viable thing in the world that needs to be changed"

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Joe's Dad View Post
              Fang, if you are in the Baltimore area, check out the Baltimore American Indian Center (BAIC). Keith Colston was the Ex. Dir. there. Don't know if he still is, though. I believe the center was opened to serve the large population of Lumbees who moved there from North Carolina. I'm sure they serve all skins.
              Heh, small world! Keith is a friend/acquaintance of mine and I recently worked as an intern for him at the Maryland Commission on Indian Affairs (would have done a second term, but family issues came up). I occasionally work with the BAIC and participate in their events. There's a quarter auction coming up at the center to help with funding that I'll be attending... and want to discuss with them the possibilities of helping to teach beading and crafts occasionally.

              Comment


              • #22
                I know there is another thread on here (archives) that touches on these symbols and their use by Nazi Germans. Here is a little graphic to add to the conversation:
                "I'm learning to accept the things that are beyond my control,
                and working on improving the things that are." -RBTF

                Comment


                • #23
                  I used to attend the powwows over at Festival Hall before the opened Camden Yards.

                  I forgot Keith was with the state commission now. I remember when he was moving up from Teens to Men's in Fancy. LOL He has a sister who could dance his pants off. Love his mom and dad.

                  If you want to help, write grants for the center to the Humanities or other philanthropist organizations.


                  Why must I feel like that..why must I chase the cat?


                  "When I was young man I did some dumb things and the elders would talk to me. Sometimes I listened. Time went by and as I looked around...I was the elder".

                  Mr. Rossie Freeman

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Fang View Post
                    A question for Elo: If you don't know what the symbol truly means (to both the Oyate and your immediate family), why use it? It's sometimes good to want to revive parts of one's culture, but only if you have a deep understanding and connection to its meaning. Or else it loses all purpose.
                    I agree with what you state regarding using any part ONLY if one has a deep understanding and connection to its meaning. That is why I am attempting to find out more about it's use and/or meaning (which all of the bright people on this site reading this thread have failed to produce for me) before I proceed to make it a part of the beadwork I am now working on.
                    As I stated before looking through all other pics I possess of family wearing original pieces of regalia, I have not found any part of any piece of family regalia where this 'swastika' is a part of the original design.
                    So to expand on my stupid and ignorant question what would be the purpose of only one of my elders using it on her dress?
                    Is this something that is common to any other families...that being using an original family design and adding an uncommon portion of a design for only one dress?
                    This is now becoming a question that is going to occupy a large part of my mind until I find out more about how it came to appear on only one dress. And that is going to put my whole beading project on hold until I can verify it's use and symbolism. I have the whole of the design done (for a pair of leggings) but am not stopped as the part of where the symbol is located is where I am now in the process.
                    As it stands now if I can't find out more about it I will simply disregard and omit it on these leggings.
                    "Sometimes the character of the opposition defines why something ought to be the most politically viable thing in the world that needs to be changed"

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Elo Janis View Post
                      Since I have yet to post a picture of my Unchi in her dress, in which only a small portion of the original family design is visible, how can you say it is "quite common"?
                      Perhaps to you placement of what is now being referred to, as pertains to this one dress, a 'swastika' on other designs are quite common but for the life of me I have never seen this on any other article of adornment, family or not. Ignorance on my part? Perhaps but I need not have you tell me that in the tone you have chosen to take in this discussion.
                      I know it is a PART of the of the design but the symbol itself is not utilized on any other part of my family regalia. For some reason, it appears only on this one dress belonging to my great great Grandmother. I spent the whole of last night into this morning looking at all pictures in my possession of our entire families regalia trying to find it used in any other article of clothing.
                      .............
                      Ask a question and all I am receiving are derogatory comments.
                      Sad.
                      1) Quite common as in, it is not uncommon to see such a symbol in an older piece of native work.
                      2) I will include pictures of other tribal works from various nations, who have incorporated the symbol. Perhaps it will help in your research or coming to understand the native usage of the symbol
                      3) Perhaps that one particular dress was made for a certain reason. Symbols are often used to convey a message, invoke a feeling or energy, or actually do something. I hope that your family continues their research, as it will bring you more connection to your ancestors and your nation.
                      4)I sense a tone of righteous indignation here.




                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Attached picture of dress in question. The symbol is located on her left arm near the wrist.
                        Attached Files
                        "Sometimes the character of the opposition defines why something ought to be the most politically viable thing in the world that needs to be changed"

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Elo Janis View Post
                          Attached picture of dress in question. The symbol is located on her left arm near the wrist.
                          It seems very common, and definitely put there for a reason. Perhaps you should call your tribal office and see if they can direct you on where to look into the history of the symbol for your particular tribe. If may give you an idea on exactly why your great grandmother used it n that particular dress.

                          For instance, let's say the symbol was used tribally for healing. Then you know that when she wore that dress, part of her reason and thoughts were towards healing someone or something.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Joe's Dad View Post
                            I used to attend the powwows over at Festival Hall before the opened Camden Yards.

                            I forgot Keith was with the state commission now. I remember when he was moving up from Teens to Men's in Fancy. LOL He has a sister who could dance his pants off. Love his mom and dad.

                            If you want to help, write grants for the center to the Humanities or other philanthropist organizations.
                            Haha I can't picture him as a teen! Sounds like good times.

                            Thanks for the tip! Somehow I completely overlooked grant writing. It seems to be the most straightforward and effective way to provide assistance.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Thank You Fang for producing pictures of the debated/discussed symbol for me to use to understand more about how or why this dress contains this symbol. You provided me with more information and for that I am grateful.
                              Please though, do not misinterpret my frustration for righteous indignation. After hours of seeking answers and reasons as to why this symbol appears without any understandable reason, as it now only frustration that is taking over.
                              What is very hurtful to me, especially in being amongst my own people, is being accused of being ignorant of my family and of my people in general. These uncalled for accusations serve no importance in what I am asking about.
                              So to those who chose to take such a path, I wish only the best for you.
                              And one more thing, does providing directions from 'the agency' (how many agencies are there in SD?) through various paths to Rapid City somehow show my true ancestory?
                              Now THAT is what I would call an ATTEMPT at sorry *** humor!! SO thanks for the laugh!! I surely needed one bad today as I sit here with raw fingers and a swastika image permanently seared into my mind!!
                              Is this Indian Humor? Or just Ignorant pretend Indian humor?
                              "Sometimes the character of the opposition defines why something ought to be the most politically viable thing in the world that needs to be changed"

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Fang View Post
                                It seems very common, and definitely put there for a reason. Perhaps you should call your tribal office and see if they can direct you on where to look into the history of the symbol for your particular tribe. If may give you an idea on exactly why your great grandmother used it n that particular dress.

                                For instance, let's say the symbol was used tribally for healing. Then you know that when she wore that dress, part of her reason and thoughts were towards healing someone or something.
                                In reading through a ton of threads here I once read that it would be an exercise in futility to try to call any tribal office to seek information of this sort. The op of that particular thread said the ppl would probably either cuss you out and hang up or tell you that you are wasting their valuable (?) time.
                                So off to other avenues to attempt to find the reasoning for such placement.
                                Slowly, with your help, I am coming to a conclusion to my research.

                                And yes, in the interest of retaining what is left of my sanity, I will not be placing this symbol on the leggings I am currently working on.
                                "Sometimes the character of the opposition defines why something ought to be the most politically viable thing in the world that needs to be changed"

                                Comment

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