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  • #31
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    • #32
      Originally posted by Elo Janis View Post
      I fail to realize any humor or sarcasm in your comment. I asked a simple question and you make an out of line reply. If I were you I would review history as to the 'Nazism' origin instead of trying to slam me for asking a simple question.
      Originally posted by Chevy_truckin_NDN View Post
      I think it's called humor, because I would say the same thing...that "nazi" symbol you are referring to was used by many people, for many years, but when the nazi's got a hold of it, is when it was turned from a good symbol to a symbol which symbolized hate and represented hate. That symbol was used by the retired veterans groups, even back before "nazism", natives, the boyscouts, I think, and has been disassociated because of what the symbol now symbolizes...

      stop being offended....
      Originally posted by wardancer View Post
      Lighten up ! Nothing is so serious. your ancestors have gone on and your "family design" is quite common. A lot of different tribes/families used it. At least until it became a symbol of the Nazi regime.

      And don't slam Joe's Dad for his sarcasm , He just brought points to ponder about your stupid statement !
      Originally posted by Elo Janis View Post
      When a member of the our community is seeking serious discussion and information about something so personal, imho, that is not the time for such a pointedly sarcastic response to a question asked in all seriousness and good faith.
      Seriously, this is the internet and you've got to expect all kinds of responses, take the information you want and ignore the rest, but like other have stated lighten up!

      If this is really meaningful for you then I would suggest going back to the reservation and ask your tribal elders in a more cultural way that does not involve the internet. I'm sure you know what that all involves since you state you are aware of your cultural ways. Juss my two cents.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Elo Janis View Post
        I have to SERIOUSLY object to you accusing me of being ignorant to my own culture...who the hell are you to imply that I am ignorant of anything? Especially my own background and family. How dare you!
        When I said I went to research the swastika it was because I was interested in finding out more about it...through education...
        Do you make it a habit of criticizing all people esp your own when they are interested enough about something that does not seem to be common place? I had no idea that this was used in my own tribe and so I had to learn more about it. It is not your place, in any way to question anyone's motives about learning more of what is in our past even more so when that entails learning more about what or why this symbol existed in my family.
        Regarding the correct or incorrect spelling of Lakota words, it has been long been known and realized that our language is not a written one and therefore any part of our language, when being translated could be interpreted in many different ways.
        So if I chose to spell it Unchi (rather than your spelling) just as all of my family has spelled it since the English language was used in our household, don't you think that is my own choice? Your spelling, if sounded out would not be the phonetically correct pronunciation.
        So along with implying that I am ignorant of MY culture you go on to say I don't know how to spell a word that has never been correctly translated into English?
        I think you can imagine where I am suggesting you go.
        Not at all happy with this thread at this point but I will ignore further posts from you and request you do the same for me.
        Good day!
        [MENTION=14704]elo[/MENTION]Janis
        I agree with you not using the phonetic alphabet, it is a pain to figure out how to use it. there are different phonetic representations of sounds, the c can have different sounds. When I write with friends we will use ch sometimes, it is a spoken language. And you do know how it is pronounced, which is what matters in my opinion, as opposed to people who spell it as Unci minus the appropriate phonetic marker over the c, which would still be incorrect, and some who would go on to pronounce it Un-si. There are different systems of phonetic markings, so phonetically, there is no one "right" way. Using ch and sh I find to be more user friendly amongst English speakers, though people accustomed to reading Lakota might find it a little strange. I think trying to write everything phonetically is a non-solution to bridging the gap between spoken and written languages, phonetic systems were designed to represent sounds not to be writing systems. And if you want people to use the language you got to make it so you don't have to switch keyboards, since we all have to use English too, at least for now.
        I do think the symbol is interesting and I agree with you I'd want to know more. I had seen the symbol in books when I was a child as being part of NDN symbology, and later in life in vedic stuff, which is where the nazis got it from but screwed it up and put it backwards, because they were idiots. They believed in an Indo-European Aryan superrace, this would have grown out of East Indian "whites", which never existed but the nazis were bent on proving it anyway, its all made up on their part. Even the current Indo-European language tree taught in every university linguistics department is untrue, a product of racism.
        Maybe someone made that for your g-g-gran as a gift. Since it hasn't carried through time, it seems it was just a one-time inclusion. Since the symbol did carry an added meaning in US culture in the 30s, it could have been dropped I guess. You would need to speak to your family about this. It does seem like you got jumped on. I wish I could help you more. I know how it feels to be cut off and trying to rebuild. Its the result of genocide and discrimination, not everyone made the same decisions, because we are not all robots and stereotypes, and especially women suffered more in this way, often married to non-Indians and drug along away from the community. People will cry out about the genocide and discrimination, but don't like to deal with the resulting fragmentation, which everyone has to some degree. You are asking a question, and that does imply you don't know something, which is fine. That makes you learning, not ignorant. You cannot be ignorant and learning at the same time. Not possible. I hope you get an answer.

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        • #34
          The whirling logs
          http://nativeamericanjewelrytips.wor...-log-swastika/

          a website dedicated to its history
          http://whirlinglog.com/

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Elo Janis View Post
            Since I have yet to post a picture of my Unchi in her dress, in which only a small portion of the original family design is visible, how can you say it is "quite common"?
            Perhaps to you placement of what is now being referred to, as pertains to this one dress, a 'swastika' on other designs are quite common but for the life of me I have never seen this on any other article of adornment, family or not. Ignorance on my part? Perhaps but I need not have you tell me that in the tone you have chosen to take in this discussion.
            I know it is a PART of the of the design but the symbol itself is not utilized on any other part of my family regalia. For some reason, it appears only on this one dress belonging to my great great Grandmother. I spent the whole of last night into this morning looking at all pictures in my possession of our entire families regalia trying to find it used in any other article of clothing.
            What I, well now we as I have my whole family seeking to find out why and how it ended up on this ONE dress, am trying to determine is how wide spread was this symbol used in decorating regalia? It is not as I am repeatedly saying now, a part of my family design, it is only on this one dress.
            Had you read and understood my comments as I intended it to be understood, you would realize I said it was NOT an integral part of the design itself but rather it appears outside the main portion of what the real design itself is. It is not as though the swastika is the central focal point of the design. It is randomly placed on what would be considered outside of the main part of the design. I said to me it appeared to be an afterthought as the design, my family design, did not contain the swastika itself.
            And what part of my statement do you consider 'stupid'? In normal conversation I find it in extremely bad taste to call any question regardless of the source of the question, stupid.
            And once again, I don't believe the original statement from _____________ has any sort of sarcasm or humor...at least what I would consider sarcasm/humor.
            Ask a question and all I am receiving are derogatory comments.
            Sad.
            First off you claim the design as 'your family' design. I say it's probably a generic design not owned by your family.
            Secondly , If you bothered to do any real research, you would find the design is quite common.
            Thirdly , you did some research after asking and you still don't know what it is !
            I think you should give up.......awww no go ask an elder !
            I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


            They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

            There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

            Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
            It's not me....I think you're an idiot !


            sigpic


            There's a chance you might not like me ,

            but there's a bigger

            chance I won't care

            Comment


            • #36
              muskrat_skull,
              Thank you for clarifying the language issue as it was hard to explain what I was attempting to say.
              When I was a youngster the whole 'let's all be bi-lingual' push in SD schools was underway when I was first learning the English language. I made unchi holiday & birthday cards with our language written as it sounded.
              She was as confused as to how our language was being wasechu-ized as I was standing on the other side. I would just sound it out and try to spell it. She would calmly and patiently sit there doing the same thing in trying to figure out what I was attempting to say to her using Lakolish if you will.

              But back to the use of this symbol. From what I have gathered from elders, at the time that particular picture was taken, a family member was suffering from repeated miscarriages. It is believed that the symbol signified hope for successful pregnancies. In then looking at a family tree, there were several children born around that time period, including two sets of twins.
              So I am going to accept the symbol signified 'circle of life' prayers for success at starting a family. Since it was placed near the hand, the interpretation now makes perfect sense as the maternal head of the family was seeking a hand from the Great Spirit for fertility to grow our family.
              It now makes perfect sense that instead of being placed directly into the design, it was placed on the outer part of the main part of the design meaning that an outside force was in part responsible for 'lending a hand' and helping with the reproductive process.
              I knew there was a deep spiritual meaning to the symbol and with a collective thought, we will accept this symbolism. I have decided against including this symbol in the beadwork I am in the middle of assembling. The elders I spoke to agree with this decision.

              Interesting few days to say the least!
              "Sometimes the character of the opposition defines why something ought to be the most politically viable thing in the world that needs to be changed"

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by wardancer View Post
                First off you claim the design as 'your family' design. I say it's probably a generic design not owned by your family.
                Secondly , If you bothered to do any real research, you would find the design is quite common.
                Thirdly , you did some research after asking and you still don't know what it is !
                I think you should give up.......awww no go ask an elder !
                Once again...now listen...I am not disputing the symbol's use by itself and I NOW realize it is a generic one. I just have never seen it used in MY family before, nor have I seen it on anyone's regalia in the LAKOTA tribe...EVER!! That was my original question as I am not at all familiar with its use. I was born in the 50's, well past the time the symbol fell out of favor by members of Indian tribes. Hence my not being aware of it.

                As I have repeatedly stated, it was merely an outside "addition" to OUR FAMILY design on that one buckskin dress in the picture I posted. I am fully aware of my family design that has been used for generations without change of style or of the colors used. I know full well what my family design means and what the colors themselves mean to us as a family. I am not questioning that in any way. This design has been used on all of our outfits for as long as I know. My grandma explained this to us as kids and kept us aware of it and it's deep meanings.
                Repeating it once more. The swastika was added ONLY on the outside of this ONE dress that is in the picture. See my last post as to the meaning of it's use on this one dress. As far as everyone knows, this is the ONLY time any member of my family has had this symbol as a part of the decoration on our regalia. I found out this fact over the last two days after contacting every surviving member of my family for an explanation.
                So yes your accusation is correct, the swastika like design is a generic one that was used by many tribes before Hitler took it on to represent the evilness of his beliefs and actions. I was asking if anyone knew the exact meaning of this symbol as it was used before my time and I was not aware of it at all.
                I did do my due diligence and only today came up with the answers I was seeking. But yeah, thanks for your valuable help and tremendous input!! Next time I need to know anything about Indian culture I will directly private message you.
                Agree?
                "Sometimes the character of the opposition defines why something ought to be the most politically viable thing in the world that needs to be changed"

                Comment


                • #38
                  Now to bring up another issue that probably needs its own thread.
                  If the elders were so wise and a go to source for all our Indian wants and needs, why would the current generation be so set on using, as an example, that tacky shiny disco fabric for their jingle dresses and for the shawls used by young women for their dresses?
                  Why was there such a dramatic collaboration between all tribes making us seem like one big movie land tribe indistinguishable by the regalia worn during our wacipis? It used to be that each tribe had their own unique way of dressing and one was not allowed to wear another tribe's regalia or even dance to another's music.
                  We as Lakota people used to dance only to Lakota songs that had words and meanings. Now if you are a dancer you have to be aware of and ready to dance to whatever the drums happen to play while wearing a combination of all tribes styles.
                  Where were the elders and all their wisdom when this was allowed to happen. In the old days tribes battled against each other and even in my youngster days you were never to associate with other tribes and it was almost forbidden to marry outside your own tribe and to mix bloodlines.
                  Times change I realize that but why and when was it suddenly acceptable to mix everything and to lose our individual tribal identity? This would never have been accepted by our ancestors as long as two or three generations ago.

                  Was there a meeting of all tribal elders and leaders where it was decided "hey lets let the white man take away our individual identity and look like we are all one huge tribe? When did this happen and why was it allowed to happen?
                  To me that is sad as it signals the next generations total and complete assimilation to not only the white man but to each others own tribal customs and beliefs.

                  Comments anyone? Are there any elders in the house to answer that or do you want me to drive back to Rosebud and talk to the elders about this change that spells the end to our original and beautiful ways of life?
                  Last edited by Elo Janis; 02-06-2013, 05:45 PM. Reason: Correct typos made in frustration!!
                  "Sometimes the character of the opposition defines why something ought to be the most politically viable thing in the world that needs to be changed"

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Elo Janis View Post
                    Now to bring up another issue that probably needs its own thread.
                    If the elders were so wise and a go to source for all our Indian wants and needs, why would the current generation be so set on using, as an example, that tacky shiny disco fabric for their jingle dresses and for the shawls used by young women for their dresses?
                    Why was there such a dramatic collaboration between all tribes making us seem like one big movie land tribe indistinguishable by the regalia worn during our wacipis? It used to be that each tribe had their own unique way of dressing and one was not allowed to wear another tribe's regalia or even dance to another's music.
                    We as Lakota people used to dance only to Lakota songs that had words and meanings. Now if you are a dancer you have to be aware of and ready to dance to whatever the drums happen to play while wearing a combination of all tribes styles.
                    Where were the elders and all their wisdom when this was allowed to happen. In the old days tribes battled against each other and even in my youngster days you were never to associate with other tribes and it was almost forbidden to marry outside your own tribe and to mix bloodlines.
                    Times change I realize that but why and when was it suddenly acceptable to mix everything and to lose our individual tribal identity? This would never have been accepted by our ancestors as long as two or three generations ago.

                    Was there a meeting of all tribal elders and leaders where it was decided "hey lets let the white man take away our individual identity and look like we are all one huge tribe? When did this happen and why was it allowed to happen?
                    To me that is sad as it signals the next generations total and complete assimilation to not only the white man but to each others own tribal customs and beliefs.

                    Comments anyone? Are there any elders in the house to answer that or do you want me to drive back to Rosebud and talk to the elders about this change that spells the end to our original and beautiful ways of life?
                    You should consult with [MENTION=11084]Zeke[/MENTION] !
                    I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


                    They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

                    There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

                    Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
                    It's not me....I think you're an idiot !


                    sigpic


                    There's a chance you might not like me ,

                    but there's a bigger

                    chance I won't care

                    Comment


                    • #40

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                      sigpic

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Pala Tribal gif

                        sigpic

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                        • #42
                          Funny thing about that symbol seems I read somewhere that its really old like thousands of years old! Like Hindu's Romans ect ect

                          But a few years ago I was doing some research on my Aunt's boarding school Chilocco and that was a symbol the school used until the early 30's when the Nazi party came into power and it became asscociated with them which is too bad

                          Its not a Family symbol but an ancient one discovered and used over and over

                          Chilocco Indian Agricultural School Basketball 1909


                          ᎠᏂᎩᏚᏩᎩ - Anigiduwagi
                          Till I Die!

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Elo Janis View Post
                            Are there any elders in the house to answer that or do you want me to drive back to Rosebud and talk to the elders about this change that spells the end to our original and beautiful ways of life?
                            1. You're not going to find anything of our "original way of life" at Rosebud.
                            2. Seeking that which no longer exists is what holds us back.
                            3. Growth is NOT assimilation.

                            As for what you wear into the arena, I'm a big fan of personal expression even if most folks have no idea what you're doing. I you desire to wear a German co-opted symbol while dancing? I'm fine with that.

                            About ten years ago, the was a cloth dress dancer who, on Sunday afternoons, would wear a 7th Calvary Stetson. First, she wasn't very tall so she was cute as a bug. Second, some folks got mad.

                            "How coud she wear/do such a thing? That's the mark of our oppressor..." and such bull****.

                            My answer? In 1876, where would she GET such a hat?

                            Do the math...

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by muskrat_skull View Post
                              I do think the symbol is interesting and I agree with you I'd want to know more. I had seen the symbol in books when I was a child as being part of NDN symbology, and later in life in vedic stuff, which is where the nazis got it from but screwed it up and put it backwards, because they were idiots. They believed in an Indo-European Aryan superrace, this would have grown out of East Indian "whites", which never existed but the nazis were bent on proving it anyway, its all made up on their part. Even the current Indo-European language tree taught in every university linguistics department is untrue, a product of racism.
                              Thank you, for dispelling another 'white' lie. I believe it's important to say even at the risk of being viewed by some as racist because they want to silence you truth-seekers, and it connects ppl behind truth rather than lies; albeit, silently.

                              Originally posted by muskrat_skull View Post
                              It does seem like you got jumped on. I wish I could help you more. I know how it feels to be cut off and trying to rebuild. Its the result of genocide and discrimination, not everyone made the same decisions, because we are not all robots and stereotypes, and especially women suffered more in this way, often married to non-Indians and drug along away from the community. People will cry out about the genocide and discrimination, but don't like to deal with the resulting fragmentation, which everyone has to some degree. You are asking a question, and that does imply you don't know something, which is fine. That makes you learning, not ignorant. You cannot be ignorant and learning at the same time. Not possible. I hope you get an answer.
                              @ Elo Janis
                              I concur with this. There is nothing wrong with trying to find out. In fact, I encourage you. Contrary to what it may seem at times, we all start out with wonder and questions. No one is born with the answers. You don't deserve to be jumped on. Believe me, if I thought so I would have jumped on you also. lol
                              I'm coming in late on this thread, but it's disappointing that no one is helping you to understand the meaning of the symbol but instead making it about some frivolous point, or even worse, that no one knows and the knowledge has been lost. Now I'm not the nDn ethnic variety, but I'm the Asian ethnic variety, but if you know we are from a common root then perhaps you might find my explanation useful.
                              I'd like to add that 'swastika' is sanskrit -- still used by Indians and Buddhists (although rarefied groups), and a symbol still made in modern day (not so much in the West obviously due to Nazism). Its actual spelling is svastika, and translated into today's vernacular means, "Whoop! There it is!" It points to the meaning of life, or that there is a meaning; hence this is why Nazis flip the svastika because they were guided by nihilism. They feel truth only lies in contempt. So they contempt everything, even their own allies as it turned out. They wanted to gain power through might, enslavement, totalitarianism,...like screwing things into place rather than unscrewing things to be free, and they wanted to be the screwer (uber-human). This may sound familiar in today's context for some. In truth though, the direction of the svastika doesn't matter so much. Their response is to Buddhists and the de-militarizing nature of their beliefs. So they are trying to say, God is dead, there is no meaning to life (nihilism), and might makes right.
                              As I have been taught, svastika refers to the 4 winds + sun movement (or celestial movements) + earth axis (or rotation/orbit) + humans (matter) -- one in the same of a bigger movement, just different parts as we humans identify it. It also speaks of numerology/direction (sacred geometry), sound (vibration), etc... but that's another topic. The significance of the 4 (8,16,etc..) winds speak about the different characters of wind and relates to health & spirit. Sometimes the swastika is put on an angle to signify the multiplicity of 4 and its omnidirectional meaning.
                              It is a symbol of 'pre-heaven' times or the constitution of our world as we were given. We are in 'post-heaven' times, perhaps demarcated by the ancient wars, meteors that killed dinosaurs, or aliens; but namely, a major axis (rotation) shift in our planet. The difference between pre-heaven and post-heaven in regards to wind is that the forces of our world had different significance, then vs today. In pre-heaven times, wind was a much more stronger power. You can liken it to going into water where air pressure is 100 times less than outside of water, and how according to your breath you can control buoyancy; hence, the association with levitation and monks. You can think about how the pyramids were made, why we don't make them anymore, what told them to choose those places, etc. Or why humans referred to birds and flying. 'Post-heaven' refers to what was done to us and our world after what was given. Although this is a pre-heaven symbol perhaps made post-heaven, it is still important to know what we come from to know who we are and realize where we are going. This is part and parcel to understanding that there is meaning in life--that we aren't alienated, but that we are connected to each other and God (the force, buddha-nature, whatever). At any rate, wind or air power is still relevant today. Think about an explosion, the vast majority of the destruction is due to air power rather than the explosive itself. Or simply as breathing.

                              The cross is humanity (matter) and reference to the number 10, or binary code of 0 & 1, or form & emptiness. The winds (vibration) cause and effect each other is also signified by the crossing. This means that everything causes and effects each other, contrary to the Western ideal of cause and effect in a linear fashion, where A causes/effects B, B upon C, etc. The ancients saw it as A, B, C causes /effects each other, so A causes/effects B & C, B causes/effects A& C, etc... Like a drop in still water that ripples to its shore and ripples back to its source-point. So linear causality is actually just a small excerpt of the causality idea of the ancients. In pali the word is 'patticasamupada.'
                              The swastika 'whirls' outward & inward. As the ancients say, "the outer is of the inner, the inner is of the outer. the upper is of the lower, the lower is of the upper." -- or in modern speak, a relationship of heaven and earth, and we're in it. It whirls left, it whirls right, like yin-yang, and signifies a circle. I think most of you know the significance of the circle and its very maternal shape. Without going into a long drawn out writing, these are just some clues for those interested to go further. In essence, its an explanation of becoming, or a you can say an ancient scientific model. The svastika is a book of knowledge contained in a symbol. Its very important symbol once you know what it means if you can get away from the Nazi stuff. Its more akin to yin-yang symbol than Nazism.
                              For my ten-cents, I think the svastika shouldn't end with the Nazis and be memorialized with them. The fact is, its an understanding that can be used to help ppl or hurt ppl, but if ppl become unaware of it then we are just fulfilling Nazism, no? Even if the symbol is not used, the teachings should not be lost. There is a greater community of our ppl outside of televisions and movies that we are taught. And not everyone that has the svastika is of the svastika, as evidenced by the Nazis. So you really do need to learn the meaning of it rather than just looking to see who has the 'badge.' Excuse my elementary speak, but we could go on forever.
                              When I despair, I remember that all through history the ways of truth and love have always won. There have been tyrants, and murderers, and for a time they can seem invincible, but in the end they always fall. Think of it—always.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Zeke View Post
                                1. You're not going to find anything of our "original way of life" at Rosebud.
                                2. Seeking that which no longer exists is what holds us back.
                                3. Growth is NOT assimilation.

                                As for what you wear into the arena, I'm a big fan of personal expression even if most folks have no idea what you're doing. I you desire to wear a German co-opted symbol while dancing? I'm fine with that.

                                About ten years ago, the was a cloth dress dancer who, on Sunday afternoons, would wear a 7th Calvary Stetson. First, she wasn't very tall so she was cute as a bug. Second, some folks got mad.

                                "How coud she wear/do such a thing? That's the mark of our oppressor..." and such bull****.

                                My answer? In 1876, where would she GET such a hat?

                                Do the math...
                                Homogenization is not growth. And all growth is not good. The drive to progress is part of western culture, well some western culture, the predominant culture, which is reckless and frought with problems. Means-oriented cultures, which focus more on the way things are done vs. achieving goals any way possible, are sorely lacking. We need a balance, but there is no place for means-oriented or traditional people in today's fast pace, achieve what you can, greedy culture. Our planet is dying because of this, its not hippy crap, its real. Its not always about being the best, but just being in the right way. Just like you are concerned with individuals being responsible, cultures need to be responsible for their messaging and their direction. We can't just be a country with everyone going off in every direction, we had laws and regulations and people to enforce them at one time and a set of core beliefs and an identity, for better or worse, even as Americans. I hate to see more people jump on this bandwagon of progress at any cost, all progress is good, that something has to be new and modern to be good. Its just as foolish as thinking everything old is better. Many older ways are better simply because we were less efficient with our greed, to some degree. For many people we are invisible and an unimportant minority, being "modern" with all the conspicuous consumption, competition vs. cooperation, and worshipping at the altar of mammon isn't gonna change that. Its a rat wheel, sometimes necessary, but one we all are glad to get off. It's something we teach in school, that means oriented thinking can change the way we view the world and each other and stop the path of destruction we're on. We can be better workers and people this way.

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