Nazi design in Lakota beadwork late 1800s

[wyo_rose]

Good ONE!!

My mom had this symbol on some of her old stuff.

[wyo_rose]

Here is a news article from Moorhead Daily News, Spet. 28, 1940:

Wow, I think the removal of the symbol back in the day had the opposite of the intended effect.

[Zeke]

** 1. ...All that I need to know about the traditional ways of my tribe has been conveyed to me by my own family members, my unchi in particular...

Based upon this thread, apparently not.

** 2. ...The sacred Sundance was never meant to be made public but now I see these songs available to all on iTunes!! My Unchi would flip out and kill anyone who would even think about making these things public.

I would invite him to try. Precisely how do you know what anyone intended, long ago? You appear to be romanticizing us.

** 3. In many ways growth, as we understand it in Native life, certainly does equate assimilation to the Euro culture.

Only if your view of "Native life" is short-sighted, closeted, and somewhat short of intelligent.

One example, as poor as it might be, is watching some YouTube videos posted by young NDNs. On these videos youngsters were taking things traditional and putting unflattering twists to them.

Based upon whose views?

Watching as a non Indian, I believe their actions would be interpreted as a sign of a lack of education and an ignorance to our way of life.

Or, perhaps, a reinterpretation and new art form.

Watching as an NDN, I am sickened by them mocking what was once held sacred and traditional.

And, apparently, an art form you are incapable of understanding.

In the comment section under the videos after posting my common sense thoughts, I have been called derogatory names and my heritage was questioned because I did not believe in what they were doing.

Then your "sense" isn't "common."

Their actions on the videos only serve to portray us as worthless, uneducated and ignorant.

In this case, it seems you do not identify "us" as anyone but you?

Regarding the wearing of regalia in the dance arena, I too am all for personal expression. Life at powwows would not be what it is if not for this practice of personal expression. That said, there are ways of taking original and tribal specific articles and updating them in a modern way while still retaining the heritage they represent.

But, then, they're NOT "original." You can't have it both ways.

I am NOT for combining items from a wide variety of tribes and assembling them in a manner which reminds me of old westerns where regardless of the tribes being portrayed, all costumes contained the same stereotypical articles of clothing.

You mean as if there were wide ranging language and lifestyle groupings? Oh, wait... You are aware that, these days, most powwow folk ARE a combination of a variety of tribes?

Take the now popular practice of women using a single eagle feather attached to the back of a 'headpiece' (not sure what you call it) and having it stand straight up. Besides probably not even receiving the feather in the traditional manner, in the proper ceremony, it looks exactly like the "squaws" as they were portrayed in the 50's. There are many other issues I am having with regalia, but this is but one example.

How do you know what their "traditional manner" is? Or subjective method of dress?

As a dancer, you are a representative of your own tribe. Why would you want to mix so many different elements from all tribes to the extent of not even being able to be identified as being from one particular tribe.

Because very few of us ARE from one particular tribe, anymore?

So unlike you, I believe that you HAVE to know what you are doing and why you are doing it before you present yourself as a representative of your tribe.

In my powwows.com youth I would have, likely, used this completely lame and erroneous statement as an excuse to go off on a Dennis Miller style rant.

As it is, I'll just sigh.

(sigh)

[muskrat_skull]

Thank You docat for the articles you posted. Just by chance last night I came across the article you mentioned where Native Tribes vowed not to use the symbol or to be associated with it in any manner after the German Nazis took over the use of it and ruined the meaning for many a culture.
Yes by the way, I do have family members who have fought in every war that the US has been involved in. Their participation has always been a topic of pride for the family and more importantly for the tribe as a whole.
What I find extremely valuable to our existence as not only Native people, but as American citizens and what sets up apart from all other citizens (immigrants) of this country, is the fact that we value greatly the symbolism of our Nation's flag and the allegiance we have taken to it as a sub group of American citizens.
I can not think of any other group of people, using my Unchi as my example as patriots of the USA, who are as dedicated to the preservation of our country. Growing up with her as the maternal leader of our family I learned many things and one of the fondest memories I have of her is that she would start EVERY day by singing the Lakota National Anthem followed by the Veterans' honoring song.
I recall sharing this particular part of my growing up with a college class during one of our many debates about American Patriotism.
The overwhelmingly positive response I received from my professor and the rest of the class was amazing! The professor asked if I could share a recorded rendition of her singing these two songs and I was happy to comply.
What really shocked me in a positive manner was for the remainder of the school year in his class he would start our day of learning by playing this recording of her singing the National Anthem. It was an amazing thing to be able to provide for my class and allowed me to remember her allegiance to a country who attempted...succeded to wipe out her ancestors and our entire culture.

Well, I may be out on a limb here, but I think the symbol is of importance and a spiritual symbol, and while a decision was made in the past, maybe it should be revisited. Someone posted a great article on here about reclaiming the "swastika". This is another way of overcoming the bad things the symbol has been associated with. The cross has been used in horrible ways, never slowed anyone down.

It was ignorance and racism that caused an association between the wheel of life or whirling logs and the swastika, so why let the spirit of that ignorance and racism live on, through avoidance, and ever change cultures, who are threatened enough as it is? Haven't other cultures tried to put enough shame on Indians? Do we need another thing to be shamed about or mad about?

That being said, I did not fight in WWII, my grandfather did. I cannot ask his opinion as he is passed. I can't imagine the mindgames having a familiar and sacred symbol plastered on your enemy must have been. Perhaps some people fought to take it back and were insulted the symbol was misappropriated by the Nazis and some just never wanted to see that symbol again.

But maybe, like [MENTION=11084]Zeke[/MENTION] talks about growth, this is something that changes with time, and it can be taken back. It wasn't the symbol that was bad, it was the people. Assigning or reassigning positive meaning to it could be a healing thing in a larger way.

I think it was good the symbol was abandoned at the time, it was extremely compassionate to do this. It was a great sacrifice. But in an age with Nazi games and movies and all kinds of painful reminders, is the respectful use of a symbol similar to one that was misappropriated in the first place hurtful to anyone? I don't know.
I think if you are reacting to the symbol, yes. But if you stop and think about it, you can make a conscious choice to recognize its prior use in many cultures and the positive side and this creates a positive mental imprint for the symbol, which appears in its proper cultural context.
It may not be comfortable, but is it wrong? I don't know. Otherwise, to this day, most people are conditioned by mainstream society to react with shame and horror at the sight of it, and this bad feeling becomes associated with things and people that don't deserve this.

[wyo_rose]

I don't think that disassociating with the symbol was right back then...ranks right up there with sending Japanese-Americans to internment camps.

[Elo Janis]

Based upon this thread, apparently not.



I would invite him to try. Precisely how do you know what anyone intended, long ago? You appear to be romanticizing us.



Only if your view of "Native life" is short-sighted, closeted, and somewhat short of intelligent.



Based upon whose views?



Or, perhaps, a reinterpretation and new art form.



And, apparently, an art form you are incapable of understanding.



Then your "sense" isn't "common."



In this case, it seems you do not identify "us" as anyone but you?



But, then, they're NOT "original." You can't have it both ways.



You mean as if there were wide ranging language and lifestyle groupings? Oh, wait... You are aware that, these days, most powwow folk ARE a combination of a variety of tribes?



How do you know what their "traditional manner" is? Or subjective method of dress?



Because very few of us ARE from one particular tribe, anymore?



In my powwows.com youth I would have, likely, used this completely lame and erroneous statement as an excuse to go off on a Dennis Miller style rant.

As it is, I'll just sigh.

(sigh)

Sigh all you want!
You take portions of previous threads and take them out of context in an attempt to make my thoughts irrelevant...sometimes this internet behavior works and sometimes not. For the most part you fall into the latter category.
As laborious as it might be, I will take time to respond to your comments...sigh.
1. Since the use of this symbol was discontinued, for good reason, by the time I was born, it was not mentioned as anything that needed to be addressed. Anything that had a negative perception was rarely, if ever mentioned. This I found out later was a common thing in the older wiser generations. Those who were alive at the time of 'the takeover' did not focus their attention on what was done to them as doing so gave their actions validity.
2. I can't come up with an answer to this comment as I do not know who the "him" you are referring to. The point I was making was the Lakota Sundance was the most sacred of ceremonies and no one other than Lakota people were to have any part of it. My feelings were one of shock and disappointment as anyone knowledgeable about the ceremony and it's deep meanings would be fully aware of. Your comments about this subject show ignorance at it's best.
3. Growth in Native Life IS about assimilation backed up by the fact that things that were once only spoken of in private are now plastered all over the 'net and are made to seem like irrelevant subjects. Once this happens then the true meanings of our once sacred traditions and culture are trivialized to the point of them being no longer relevant.
4. Based on the views of traditional ancestors whose beings were pure and not yet raped by the arrival of Europeans.
5. I have no tolerance to see members of any tribe taking our culture and mocking and laughing at it. After I posted how disgusting their actions were I was accused of being one of those "Traditional Indians" as though that was a bad thing to aspire to.
6. In what world do you live which allows for ones belief system to be torn down and the true meaning discarded and mocked? That is the exact opposite of being who we really are. There is no 'art form', unless you are a comedian whose purpose is to help tear out what is left of our culture.
7. It is more a matter of these youngsters having NO COMMON SENSE as common sense means to me having a basic understanding of what is right and that is wrong. What these kids were doing, while dressed in their tribal regalia was undeniably wrong. If it were possible to reach through the screen and slap some sense into these drugged out freaks I would have done so with great delight!
8. The us I was referring to were my ancestors who they were mocking and laughing at. To me this behavior was not of Indian youth but that of someone raised in an Aryan household.
9. By 'original' I am meaning that they should be sticking to what their own tribal beliefs or way of life entails instead of mixing parts of any number of tribes. To me there is no reason regardless of how mixed we might be to try and assume other tribal manners of dress, music or any other characteristic which made us all Native but still honored our own sense of being unique and individual.
10. I know what my own traditional manners of dress are and what each item (used to) mean(s) to my tribe. In this day of combining manners of dress and music...maybe as a means of survival as Native Americans...these meanings and significance are being lost for the rest of time. That to me is very sad.
11. I guess at this point in time there is no clear demarcation of who is from what tribe as I suggested above in an attempt to keep Native Americans relevant? To me though even if you are of mixed cultures, why cannot you chose which tribe you are representing and stay true to that tribe? Is it that difficult?

And to reply to your last statement, what purpose do modern day powwows serve if there is no clear definition between the different tribes? Are we supposed to just be happy to be defined as Native American and be happy with that? According to your posting that is where we are in our Native American lives and our celebration of that fact.
OK Dennis Miller (so 20 years ago reference btw) rant is now over. Return to your regularly scheduled lives.

[Grits & Beans]

i need more popcorn haha

[Suzizila]

The whirling logs
http://nativeamericanjewelrytips.wor...-log-swastika/

a website dedicated to its history
http://whirlinglog.com/

muskrat_skull, That's exactly the name by which Ben Hunt referred to this design in a book I bought when I was a teen.

[Fang]

i need more popcorn haha

11. I guess at this point in time there is no clear demarcation of who is from what tribe as I suggested above in an attempt to keep Native Americans relevant? To me though even if you are of mixed cultures, why cannot you chose which tribe you are representing and stay true to that tribe? Is it that difficult?

On one hand I understand what you are saying. I have seen a few (and only a few) dancers who do have native blood, but who have picked and chosen different aspects of their regalia to use without proper understanding of where the designs and colors come from. They watch youtube videos or go to intertribals and look at designs/colors/footwork/etc. and incorporate those into their own personal regalia- which in addition to copying and stealing, also may not be from their particular tribe. As such, they are not staying true to their tribe(s), to themselves, and are disrespecting others.

However, the way you word it sounds as though if we are from more than one tribe, we must pick which side of our family we wish to represent, and cast out the other part of us. Perhaps I am mistaken, but is this what you are saying? While certainly, we should 'stay true' to our representation, and wear our regalia with honor and pride as we represent our tribe and ancestors. But despite being from many different nations, we are still all one people. If you or I happened to be Lakota on one parents side, and Crow/Apache/Cree/Lumbee/ or Piscataway on the other side, why should we honor one of our ancestors, but not the other? Are you saying we should hold one in higher regard than the other? While certainly it may look strange to wear half of one style regalia and half of another (and I would not suggest that), I think it is possible to honor more than one side of your heritage at once, so long as you completely understand what you are doing, what it means, why, and be respectful in doing so. Mixing the colors of two tribes in your regalia can show the mixing of the two tribes inside of you. This is just my opinion on the topic though. But I feel that if (and this does not go for everyone of course) some of us are to only choose one side of ourselves, we are only dancing with half of our spirit. We should be proud and honor all of who we are in a respectful manner, without shunning one side of us. We should dance for all that created us. We should dance for our parents, our grandparents, our cousins... on both sides of our families without picking and choosing as if one is greater than the other. We should dance for all those who need healing, dance for all of our ancestors, dance for those who can't dance anymore, and dance for those who may have lost their way. But perhaps you disagree, and that's okay too.

[lbgood]

3. Growth in Native Life IS about assimilation backed up by the fact that things that were once only spoken of in private are now plastered all over the 'net and are made to seem like irrelevant subjects. Once this happens then the true meanings of our once sacred traditions and culture are trivialized to the point of them being no longer relevant.
5. I have no tolerance to see members of any tribe taking our culture and mocking and laughing at it. After I posted how disgusting their actions were I was accused of being one of those "Traditional Indians" as though that was a bad thing to aspire to .

I'm not trying to be mean, at this point I am just trying to understand. You have strong views as stated above in your posts, but yet you choose to go to the internet to obtain said information (with regard to your family) which in above statements you feel it is better discussed in private and its effect on its relevants. One can spew their diatribe, but you cant have it both ways and be taken seriously!

[wardancer]

I'm not trying to be mean, at this point I am just trying to understand. You have strong views as stated above in your posts, but yet you choose to go to the internet to obtain said information (with regard to your family) which in above statements you feel it is better discussed in private and its effect on its relevants. One can spew their diatribe, but you cant have it both ways and be taken seriously!

Ed Zachary !

[muskrat_skull]

muskrat_skull, That's exactly the name by which Ben Hunt referred to this design in a book I bought when I was a teen.

Funny how a couple of whirling logs could stir up so much!

[muskrat_skull]

I don't think that disassociating with the symbol was right back then...ranks right up there with sending Japanese-Americans to internment camps.

I agree, but if the nations did it voluntarily I think they have to have the responsibility for that decision. I mean, can you imagine the comments being made by dumb outsiders and people who hated NDNs, maybe they just wanted it to stop.

[Zeke]

Sigh all you want!

That's what responding to closed-minded stupidity does to me, beyond the giggles I get watching Natural Selection take course.

You take portions of previous threads and take them out of context in an attempt to make my thoughts irrelevant...

No. Your thoughts were irrelevant to begin with. Well, at least not well conceived.

sometimes this internet behavior works and sometimes not. For the most part you fall into the latter category.

The part where you, again, fail to grasp reality?

As laborious as it might be, I will take time to respond to your comments...sigh.

It's only laborious when you have no defense. Personally, I look forward to your ongoing evisceration, already started by more polite folks pointing out that you cannot have it both ways...

1. Since the use of this symbol was discontinued, for good reason, by the time I was born, it was not mentioned as anything that needed to be addressed.

Actually, it's only been discontinued by those afraid of its use.

Anything that had a negative perception was rarely, if ever mentioned. This I found out later was a common thing in the older wiser generations.

Of which you appear to be part of neither?

Those who were alive at the time of 'the takeover' did not focus their attention on what was done to them as doing so gave their actions validity.

Meaning that if you do not address that which holds us back you condone said behavior and ignorance? I'll consider it my duty to respond to you, then.

2. I can't come up with an answer to this comment as I do not know who the "him" you are referring to.

Of course not. That would demand accountability that you are unwilling to accept.

The point I was making was the Lakota Sundance was the most sacred of ceremonies and no one other than Lakota people were to have any part of it.

Says who? Seriously. Find me a Lakota in a seance who can speak to this.

My feelings were one of shock and disappointment as anyone knowledgeable about the ceremony and it's deep meanings would be fully aware of.

No. Your feelings are obviously fear.

Your comments about this subject show ignorance at it's best.

Negative. I show fearlessness.

3. Growth in Native Life IS about assimilation backed up by the fact that things that were once only spoken of in private are now plastered all over the 'net and are made to seem like irrelevant subjects.

More fear.

Once this happens then the true meanings of our once sacred traditions and culture are trivialized to the point of them being no longer relevant.

Many, are. And? Still afraid of the moon, are you?

4. Based on the views of traditional ancestors whose beings were pure and not yet raped by the arrival of Europeans.

There's that bogus romanticism you are obviously full of. I'll come right out and say it: equating traditionalism with purity is the height of idiocy. There is NO linear relationship.

5. I have no tolerance to see members of any tribe taking our culture and mocking and laughing at it.

I have no tolerance for folks treating living culture as static religion.

After I posted how disgusting their actions were I was accused of being one of those "Traditional Indians" as though that was a bad thing to aspire to.

If you desire to exist in this modern world, it often is. Again, you're romanticizing.

6. In what world do you live which allows for ones belief system to be torn down and the true meaning discarded and mocked?

One where my belief system isn't threatened by yours. You know, an existence where it's actually valid and worthwhile to be a socially adult Native.

That is the exact opposite of being who we really are.

No. it's the exact opposite of being who YOU really are, which is a scared little person (apparently).

There is no 'art form', unless you are a comedian whose purpose is to help tear out what is left of our culture.

BOGUS. Culture lives and breathes. If what you define as "left" is of value, it will remain. If it's not, it won't have to be "torn out," it will be appropriately discarded. Being a (sad) comedian would be to clownishly hold on to outdated models.

7. It is more a matter of these youngsters having NO COMMON SENSE as common sense means to me having a basic understanding of what is right and that is wrong.

Look in a mirror. Obviously, it is YOU who are a rudderless enigma. NOTE: when nobody has an issue but you, the problem is internal, not external. Google "fear."

What these kids were doing, while dressed in their tribal regalia was undeniably wrong.

100%, completely, absolutely inaccurate unless you deem yourself arbiter. If you think I'm pummeling you know? Try it. Negating that argument is something I ALWAYS win. I smoke cigars in eagle feathers all the time. Why can I? Because they're MINE. Have an issue?

If it were possible to reach through the screen and slap some sense into these drugged out freaks I would have done so with great delight!

No, you wouldn't have. Frankly, you're just not that brave.

8. The us I was referring to were my ancestors who they were mocking and laughing at.

Sorry. That's just invalid and you're projecting. You -- YOU -- felt mocked because other Natives don't share your world view and you're trying to connect it to ancestry for validation. Get a life and grow up.

To me this behavior was not of Indian youth but that of someone raised in an Aryan household.

Like, say, a household where social propaganda informs them of their own divine right to the land, spiritual righteousness, a place at God's right hand and a divine destiny? Sounds romantically Native to me...

9. By 'original' I am meaning that they should be sticking to what their own tribal beliefs or way of life entails instead of mixing parts of any number of tribes.

Earth, Hitler, 1938.

To me there is no reason regardless of how mixed we might be to try and assume other tribal manners of dress, music or any other characteristic which made us all Native but still honored our own sense of being unique and individual.

Except, of course, that we have done so since the beginning of time.

10. I know what my own traditional manners of dress are and what each item (used to) mean(s) to my tribe. In this day of combining manners of dress and music...maybe as a means of survival as Native Americans...these meanings and significance are being lost for the rest of time. That to me is very sad.

Only if you treat traditionalism as religion. You'd make a GREAT museum piece.

11. I guess at this point in time there is no clear demarcation of who is from what tribe as I suggested above in an attempt to keep Native Americans relevant? To me though even if you are of mixed cultures, why cannot you chose which tribe you are representing and stay true to that tribe? Is it that difficult?

Without being some form of socially stratified tribalistic race baiter? Uh, Yeah. (I suggest a mirror.)

And to reply to your last statement, what purpose do modern day powwows serve if there is no clear definition between the different tribes?

Do you ever READ? Anyone else care to elaborate as to my thoughts on this question?

Are we supposed to just be happy to be defined as Native American and be happy with that?

Socially? Hell yes. Or do you desire to always be fragmented? Every great victory (political or military) we've ever achieved was via unity. Then we broke up and got our asses handed to us, again...

According to your posting that is where we are in our Native American lives and our celebration of that fact.

Uh, yeah. To believe otherwise is just dumb.

OK Dennis Miller (so 20 years ago reference btw) rant is now over. Return to your regularly scheduled lives.

Yes. If your view is Saturday Night Live, it's a twenty year old reference. If your reference is CNN, he was on last night. (I think I see our communication problem...)

Interestingly, I do find it humorous you're releasing us to our lives when you appear to lack one save for whining.

That's ironic.

[AmigoKumeyaay]

On one hand I understand what you are saying. I have seen a few (and only a few) dancers who do have native blood, but who have picked and chosen different aspects of their regalia to use without proper understanding of where the designs and colors come from.

They watch youtube videos or go to intertribals and look at designs/colors/footwork/etc. and incorporate those into their own personal regalia- which in addition to copying and stealing, also may not be from their particular tribe. As such, they are not staying true to their tribe(s), to themselves, and are disrespecting others.

However, the way you word it sounds as though if we are from more than one tribe, we must pick which side of our family we wish to represent, and cast out the other part of us. Perhaps I am mistaken, but is this what you are saying?

While certainly, we should 'stay true' to our representation, and wear our regalia with honor and pride as we represent our tribe and ancestors. But despite being from many different nations, we are still all one people.

If you or I happened to be Lakota on one parents side, and Crow/Apache/Cree/Lumbee/ or Piscataway on the other side, why should we honor one of our ancestors, but not the other? Are you saying we should hold one in higher regard than the other?

While certainly it may look strange to wear half of one style regalia and half of another (and I would not suggest that), I think it is possible to honor more than one side of your heritage at once, so long as you completely understand what you are doing, what it means, why, and be respectful in doing so.

Mixing the colors of two tribes in your regalia can show the mixing of the two tribes inside of you. This is just my opinion on the topic though. But I feel that if (and this does not go for everyone of course) some of us are to only choose one side of ourselves, we are only dancing with half of our spirit.

We should be proud and honor all of who we are in a respectful manner, without shunning one side of us. We should dance for all that created us. We should dance for our parents, our grandparents, our cousins... on both sides of our families without picking and choosing as if one is greater than the other.

We should dance for all those who need healing, dance for all of our ancestors, dance for those who can't dance anymore, and dance for those who may have lost their way. But perhaps you disagree, and that's okay too.